Pulling Back the Curtain, Part 2 | Tuning and Warranty
12-17-2010, 05:11 PM
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Pulling Back the Curtain, Part 2 | Tuning and Warranty
Hello, all -
some of you might remember the first "pulling back the curtain" thread I posted a few weeks ago about consumer's rights (which was, like this one, in the 211 forum because the 211 forum is the most active on MBWorld). Well, it took me this long to get some more time to do part 2, but here it is ... and the topic of this "pulling back the curtain" is Mercedes-Benz' warranties. There are a lot of misconceptions about what is and isn't covered, and many people who want to tune their Mercedes ask what mods are "OK" under the warranty, and some people even believe that a given product from tuner "x" would be covered but a competing product from tuner "y" would not be. I'll get to that particular misconception in a bit. First, though, I think it's important to actually look at what the warranty is and isn't.
We all "get" the concept of the MB warranty. Basically, we understand that Mercedes-Benz is willing to stand behind the cars and SUVs they sell with a pretty solid (for those of us who have had Italian cars) warranty. We all know that, I think ... but how many of us have actually read and studied the Mercedes warranty? Here it is (attached) in case you don't have it readily available ...
... that, for those of you who don't want to bother reading it yourselves, is a 60+ page document outlining everything that is covered by Mercedes' warranty, and the conditions under which they are covered. On page 62 of the document, you find this: For further information you can find us on the Mercedes-Benz web-site www.mbusa.com
That's right. 60+ pages, and there is more online. The key paragraph (for those of you who want to consider tuning) is located on page 15 of the warranty (page 17 of the .PDF document), and reads "DAMAGE DUE TO ALTERATIONS: Altera- tions by changing or adding to the vehicle can adversely affect its performance, relia- bility and longevity and are not covered by this warranty."
You can search through the document all you want for references to "Modifications are not covered, except for tuning from ..." There is simply no exception for Brabus, Lorinser, RENNtech, or anyone else. There is no endorsement of any tuning firm from Mercedes-Benz corporate. Despite this, many Mercedes-Benz dealers, including some independent stores, and some stores owned by AutoNation, etc., do choose - on their own - to offer aftermarket tuning ...
... and why shouldn't they?
Tuning is an excellent revenue stream (and profit center!) for dealers, helps them to develop stronger ties with their customers, and makes the black/black S550 on their showroom floor just different enough from the black/black S550 on the other local dealer's showroom floor to get some attention and possibly earn your business - but those decisions are being made at the dealership level, to boost profits or "gross", to use the industry term. In addition, there is no exception in the Mercedes warranty information booklet covering dealer-installed items or tuning.
In other words: as far as Mercedes-Benz corporate is concerned, alterations of the vehicle - even one performed by the selling dealer - are still alterations that "can adversely affect its performance, reliability, and longevity, and (which) are not covered."
That's all pretty obvious, but this is supposed to be "pulling back the curtain" and letting everyone know how the industry works, right? So, how is it that some tuners are able to get the cars they tune through a dealer's service department with little or no hassle while other tuners' cars are pushed outside and immediately stamped with a "status 8", effectively voiding the warranty?
It's a simple answer: relationships.
When you have a relationship with a given dealership, with the sales guys, the parts guys, the service writers, the service managers, etc., you can talk to them about what you need - and they'll usually try to help.
After all, why shouldn't they? You're a valued customer who buys expensive cars and is enthusiastic about the product they sell. Beyond that, Mercedes-Benz pays the dealer to do warranty work - and usually pays them pretty well. The dealership has several incentives to (at least) be helpful.
Typically, I'll ask a client to call me, and let me set up a service appointment for them if there is ever an issue. Most of the time, simply calling ahead and telling your service writer what's going on and asking them to take a look at a given car is enough. Sometimes I have to answer some questions on behalf of the client, put their mind at ease that the car hasn't been trashed and abused, and then book the appointment. If they need any technical data or photos or whatever, I can provide that without involving the client.
90% of the time, the process is utterly transparent to my customers. They are treated like any other car owner, and rarely (if ever) has there been an issue of warranty that couldn't be resolved. This was true during my time at RENNtech with Mercedes and BMWs (RENNtech was a Dinan dealer from 2007-09), and it was true again with Porsches and HEAVILY MODDED GTR Nissans during my time at Switzer ... and don't think for a minute that Nissan's warranty on a GTR was any "better" or "more inclusive" than Mercedes' - there was even a Hitler video about it!
To recap: if the dealer CAN help, they will - and if they can't, it's usually because their hands are tied. So, even though it may SEEM like some shops have some kind of "endorsement" from Mercedes-Benz or some sort of "permission" to tune the cars, it's just not the case. Instead, that happy "my tuner's products are covered under warranty" feeling is the sum total of excellent working relationships and clear communication between the shop and the dealer. If someone is telling you otherwise, well - they're probably scratching at ways to justify charging you twice as much as what everybody else charges for essentially the same thing.
As always, I look forward to your questions and comments.
some of you might remember the first "pulling back the curtain" thread I posted a few weeks ago about consumer's rights (which was, like this one, in the 211 forum because the 211 forum is the most active on MBWorld). Well, it took me this long to get some more time to do part 2, but here it is ... and the topic of this "pulling back the curtain" is Mercedes-Benz' warranties. There are a lot of misconceptions about what is and isn't covered, and many people who want to tune their Mercedes ask what mods are "OK" under the warranty, and some people even believe that a given product from tuner "x" would be covered but a competing product from tuner "y" would not be. I'll get to that particular misconception in a bit. First, though, I think it's important to actually look at what the warranty is and isn't.
We all "get" the concept of the MB warranty. Basically, we understand that Mercedes-Benz is willing to stand behind the cars and SUVs they sell with a pretty solid (for those of us who have had Italian cars) warranty. We all know that, I think ... but how many of us have actually read and studied the Mercedes warranty? Here it is (attached) in case you don't have it readily available ...
... that, for those of you who don't want to bother reading it yourselves, is a 60+ page document outlining everything that is covered by Mercedes' warranty, and the conditions under which they are covered. On page 62 of the document, you find this: For further information you can find us on the Mercedes-Benz web-site www.mbusa.com
That's right. 60+ pages, and there is more online. The key paragraph (for those of you who want to consider tuning) is located on page 15 of the warranty (page 17 of the .PDF document), and reads "DAMAGE DUE TO ALTERATIONS: Altera- tions by changing or adding to the vehicle can adversely affect its performance, relia- bility and longevity and are not covered by this warranty."
You can search through the document all you want for references to "Modifications are not covered, except for tuning from ..." There is simply no exception for Brabus, Lorinser, RENNtech, or anyone else. There is no endorsement of any tuning firm from Mercedes-Benz corporate. Despite this, many Mercedes-Benz dealers, including some independent stores, and some stores owned by AutoNation, etc., do choose - on their own - to offer aftermarket tuning ...
... and why shouldn't they?
Tuning is an excellent revenue stream (and profit center!) for dealers, helps them to develop stronger ties with their customers, and makes the black/black S550 on their showroom floor just different enough from the black/black S550 on the other local dealer's showroom floor to get some attention and possibly earn your business - but those decisions are being made at the dealership level, to boost profits or "gross", to use the industry term. In addition, there is no exception in the Mercedes warranty information booklet covering dealer-installed items or tuning.
In other words: as far as Mercedes-Benz corporate is concerned, alterations of the vehicle - even one performed by the selling dealer - are still alterations that "can adversely affect its performance, reliability, and longevity, and (which) are not covered."
That's all pretty obvious, but this is supposed to be "pulling back the curtain" and letting everyone know how the industry works, right? So, how is it that some tuners are able to get the cars they tune through a dealer's service department with little or no hassle while other tuners' cars are pushed outside and immediately stamped with a "status 8", effectively voiding the warranty?
It's a simple answer: relationships.
When you have a relationship with a given dealership, with the sales guys, the parts guys, the service writers, the service managers, etc., you can talk to them about what you need - and they'll usually try to help.
After all, why shouldn't they? You're a valued customer who buys expensive cars and is enthusiastic about the product they sell. Beyond that, Mercedes-Benz pays the dealer to do warranty work - and usually pays them pretty well. The dealership has several incentives to (at least) be helpful.
Typically, I'll ask a client to call me, and let me set up a service appointment for them if there is ever an issue. Most of the time, simply calling ahead and telling your service writer what's going on and asking them to take a look at a given car is enough. Sometimes I have to answer some questions on behalf of the client, put their mind at ease that the car hasn't been trashed and abused, and then book the appointment. If they need any technical data or photos or whatever, I can provide that without involving the client.
90% of the time, the process is utterly transparent to my customers. They are treated like any other car owner, and rarely (if ever) has there been an issue of warranty that couldn't be resolved. This was true during my time at RENNtech with Mercedes and BMWs (RENNtech was a Dinan dealer from 2007-09), and it was true again with Porsches and HEAVILY MODDED GTR Nissans during my time at Switzer ... and don't think for a minute that Nissan's warranty on a GTR was any "better" or "more inclusive" than Mercedes' - there was even a Hitler video about it!
To recap: if the dealer CAN help, they will - and if they can't, it's usually because their hands are tied. So, even though it may SEEM like some shops have some kind of "endorsement" from Mercedes-Benz or some sort of "permission" to tune the cars, it's just not the case. Instead, that happy "my tuner's products are covered under warranty" feeling is the sum total of excellent working relationships and clear communication between the shop and the dealer. If someone is telling you otherwise, well - they're probably scratching at ways to justify charging you twice as much as what everybody else charges for essentially the same thing.
As always, I look forward to your questions and comments.
12-17-2010, 05:18 PM
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My dealership never blinks about all the mods. They CPO everything needed 100% of the time! That is why my service attendant and mechanic get gift cards every Christmas! Relationships are key!
12-17-2010, 05:27 PM
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12-17-2010, 05:31 PM
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Interesting post....
To the consumer, I'm not sure if it makes a difference though whether their car's problem is covered under warranty because of good "relationships" or official "corporate" coverage; most of the time they just want the problem resolved.
I wonder why don't the bigger companies (with bigger resources) try to work out a deal with Mercedes corporate? I would think it'd be a big advantage in the marketplace.
To the consumer, I'm not sure if it makes a difference though whether their car's problem is covered under warranty because of good "relationships" or official "corporate" coverage; most of the time they just want the problem resolved.
I wonder why don't the bigger companies (with bigger resources) try to work out a deal with Mercedes corporate? I would think it'd be a big advantage in the marketplace.
12-17-2010, 05:39 PM
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Interesting post....
To the consumer, I'm not sure if it makes a difference though whether their car's problem is covered under warranty because of good "relationships" or official "corporate" coverage; most of the time they just want the problem resolved.
I wonder why don't the bigger companies (with bigger resources) try to work out a deal with Mercedes corporate? I would think it'd be a big advantage in the marketplace.
To the consumer, I'm not sure if it makes a difference though whether their car's problem is covered under warranty because of good "relationships" or official "corporate" coverage; most of the time they just want the problem resolved.
I wonder why don't the bigger companies (with bigger resources) try to work out a deal with Mercedes corporate? I would think it'd be a big advantage in the marketplace.
Besides that, I think some of the "larger" companies - at least in the US - are not nearly as large and/or resourceful as they'd have to be to merit any kind of significant "influence" within Mercedes-Benz.
12-17-2010, 06:06 PM
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when it comes to modding, the important part of a warranty to be familiar with is that of the company doing the modding. oh, that's right...no aftermarket tuners offer one (at least not one they'll honor). which means, status quo...you're assuming all liability when modding if those parts can be linked to the failure!!!
12-17-2010, 06:12 PM
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when it comes to modding, the important part of a warranty to be familiar with is that of the company doing the modding. oh, that's right...no aftermarket tuners offer one (at least not one they'll honor). which means, status quo...you're assuming all liability when modding if those parts can be linked to the failure!!!
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12-17-2010, 06:20 PM
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Nice... I like to pre-tip my SA with a crisp hundie for the great job I know he is going to do for me.
12-17-2010, 06:25 PM
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sure they may stand behind their parts, but show me one that will take on the responsiblity of catastrophic failure their parts may contribute to.
12-17-2010, 06:46 PM
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I think the possibility of "catastrophic failure", as you put it, should be worked out in the R&D phase, either with an in-house car or with a well-informed and willing client who has been made aware that they are pushing the envelope and that things may go pear-shaped in a big way (at that point, the terms of what who should and should not be liable for what would, ideally, be spelled out in writing and agreed to by both parties).
Once a part/package is "in production", it should have enough R&D behind it that the probability of catastrophic failure is close enough to zero that the shop will be willing to step up. If they've done their job, and they have sufficient data and miles logged to stand behind the product on the limited budgets most shops have (even "bigger" shops), they won't be afraid to back up their work.
At the same time, if the car is a one-off "Frankencar" with parts from 3 or 4 different vendors, how can any vendor (or OEM) really stand behind a car like that? or a computer like that? or a bicycle like that?
I'll go a step further and point out that if your vendor is selling you a custom dyno-tune or a 1-off part, you should already be aware that you are the long-term R&D ... YOU ARE THE GUINEA PIG, and even if he's done a dozen or more custom tunes, yours is still unique, and there is no other car out there running your "race tune" or "super street tune" to pull data from ... either that, or you're paying extra for a "canned" tune. You can't have your cake and eat it too, you know?
So ... not sure if that answers your question, but if it doesn't - maybe give me a more "concrete" example of the failures you're worried about?
12-17-2010, 06:49 PM
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That's the problem here. Most of these cars here are a parts bin of stuff. I dont know many people that take their car to Renntech, Kleeman ect. and have them do all the work. That is where things go bad! When a engine blows or whatever, the blame always goes to the tunner. Not to mention half the people dont even do normal maint. and have high miled cars they are tunning the crap out of.
12-17-2010, 06:54 PM
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That's the problem here. Most of these cars here are a parts bin of stuff. I dont know many people that take their car to Renntech, Kleeman ect. and have them do all the work. That is where things go bad! When a engine blows or whatever, the blame always goes to the tunner. Not to mention half the people dont even do normal maint. and have high miled cars they are tunning the crap out of.
Someone asked me a similar question for an interview I did a few weeks ago (I'll post links when it's published). I've included the Q&A here, below.
Q. (MT)
I have to be honest – I LOVE Mercedes and the used market is so tempting with relatively inexpensive AMG edition CLS55’s, CL55 and 65’s, CLK55’s and on and on and on! But I’m always wary that the maintenance expense will kill me should I get struck with some bad luck. What is the REAL scoop on Mercedes benz reliability recently and for cars out of warranty?
A. (Jo Borras | Speedriven)
The cars are expensive, sure – but they give back in the sense that you get that value out of it. I look at the E55 Kompressor market, for example, and I think “Wow, these cars are selling for about $30K, and you just KNOW that it'll have a $5000 service bill in a few months.” but then I look at that number again, and you just can't buy that kind of power, luxury, etc. for $35,000 or even $55,000 in the new market. So there's still value there, but you have to look at these prices as “I'm getting a wikked deal on a $100,000 car.” not “Wow, these are $30,000 cars now!” you know? Go into these cars with that latter attitude, and you'll get burned.
12-17-2010, 07:01 PM
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CLK 63 Black Series, 2009 S550, 2011 Range Rover Supercharged, BMW F800 GS Anniv Edition
A. (Jo Borras | Speedriven)
The cars are expensive, sure – but they give back in the sense that you get that value out of it. I look at the E55 Kompressor market, for example, and I think “Wow, these cars are selling for about $30K, and you just KNOW that it'll have a $5000 service bill in a few months.” but then I look at that number again, and you just can't buy that kind of power, luxury, etc. for $35,000 or even $55,000 in the new market. So there's still value there, but you have to look at these prices as “I'm getting a wikked deal on a $100,000 car.” not “Wow, these are $30,000 cars now!” you know? Go into these cars with that latter attitude, and you'll get burned.
12-17-2010, 07:04 PM
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Great response...I'd also add that even though the car represents a fantastic value at say, $35k....the parts and labor are still as expensive as when the car was new. As you look at even more expensive cars (Bentleys, F-cars etc) get cheaper, this ratio of used cost value to maintenance cost increases exponentially. Something a lot of people don't think about until they get a $13,000 bill to replace a transmission
12-17-2010, 07:05 PM
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Not to mention another aspect.....the constant racing and beating on the car. I am pretty sure these cars were not meant to be drag race cars, or street race cars. I am not against drag racing, but you gotta pay to play. If you are going to treat a Benz like that, expect failure at some point. Pro drag racers rebuild their engines every other race or so for Gods sake.
12-17-2010, 07:10 PM
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CLK 63 Black Series, 2009 S550, 2011 Range Rover Supercharged, BMW F800 GS Anniv Edition
Not to mention another aspect.....the constant racing and beating on the car. I am pretty sure these cars were not meant to be drag race cars, or street race cars. I am not against drag racing, but you gotta pay to play. If you are going to treat a Benz like that, expect failure at some point. Pro drag racers rebuild their engines every other race or so for Gods sake.
12-17-2010, 07:11 PM
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2003 E55 & 2014 GL550
Totally agree about the "relationship" part when it comes to the dealer but please please don't forget this everyone. In order for your dealer to put an expensive part in your car under warranty (the tripwire amount I am unsure of) they need authorization from the dreaded "regional guys". These are the real ****'s whose only job is to save Benz money by making sure we being good boys and girls and not modding or pulling funny business. They spot anything out of sorts with the car and they have authority to stamp DENIED on the request for new engine/tranny/ rear diff etc.
You can be dealing heroin to the service manager, but when it comes to catastrophic faillures, they bring in the corporate regional guys for approval.
That's why you need to play the game when modding. Save all parts and be ready in case of the worst case scenario. A weekend of wrench turning and 1K of install charges to rip out mods could save you $$$$$$$$$$$$$ if the unthinkable happens.
Honestly it's part of why I am so addicted to modding. It's kinda like gambling. You are rolling the dice that a 44,000$ (yup what she used to cost new) engine will not pop on you. Weirdest thing to describe but it's kind of a rush doing it.
I am out of warranty now so the thrill is gone.
You can be dealing heroin to the service manager, but when it comes to catastrophic faillures, they bring in the corporate regional guys for approval.
That's why you need to play the game when modding. Save all parts and be ready in case of the worst case scenario. A weekend of wrench turning and 1K of install charges to rip out mods could save you $$$$$$$$$$$$$ if the unthinkable happens.
Honestly it's part of why I am so addicted to modding. It's kinda like gambling. You are rolling the dice that a 44,000$ (yup what she used to cost new) engine will not pop on you. Weirdest thing to describe but it's kind of a rush doing it.
I am out of warranty now so the thrill is gone.
12-17-2010, 07:12 PM
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Not to mention another aspect.....the constant racing and beating on the car. I am pretty sure these cars were not meant to be drag race cars, or street race cars. I am not against drag racing, but you gotta pay to play. If you are going to treat a Benz like that, expect failure at some point. Pro drag racers rebuild their engines every other race or so for Gods sake.
If you want to break records and run 10s, that's great - but don't expect to do so on a budget. I saw this in a friend's Hemi shop a few months back:
Fast, reliable, and cheap ... choose any 2.
In automotive, truer words were never spoken.
SO ... take some time to talk to someone who is willing to tell you something you may not want to hear before you head to the dragstrip / road-course. Good advice is incredibly valuable, and an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
12-17-2010, 07:14 PM
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12-17-2010, 07:26 PM
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i guess that's a fair answer considering you're new to the 55k marketplace and aren't familiar with what some people have gone through but we both know what "should" be done and what actually gets done are often two different things. i'm not talking about frankencars so i won't address those comments but over the last few years there have been enough stage 1 failures that lead to major repairs in which tuners did not step up. it is what it is...
That's pretty vague, but I'll feed it a bit and see where this goes.
I think the possibility of "catastrophic failure", as you put it, should be worked out in the R&D phase, either with an in-house car or with a well-informed and willing client who has been made aware that they are pushing the envelope and that things may go pear-shaped in a big way (at that point, the terms of what who should and should not be liable for what would, ideally, be spelled out in writing and agreed to by both parties).
Once a part/package is "in production", it should have enough R&D behind it that the probability of catastrophic failure is close enough to zero that the shop will be willing to step up. If they've done their job, and they have sufficient data and miles logged to stand behind the product on the limited budgets most shops have (even "bigger" shops), they won't be afraid to back up their work.
At the same time, if the car is a one-off "Frankencar" with parts from 3 or 4 different vendors, how can any vendor (or OEM) really stand behind a car like that? or a computer like that? or a bicycle like that?
I'll go a step further and point out that if your vendor is selling you a custom dyno-tune or a 1-off part, you should already be aware that you are the long-term R&D ... YOU ARE THE GUINEA PIG, and even if he's done a dozen or more custom tunes, yours is still unique, and there is no other car out there running your "race tune" or "super street tune" to pull data from ... either that, or you're paying extra for a "canned" tune. You can't have your cake and eat it too, you know?
So ... not sure if that answers your question, but if it doesn't - maybe give me a more "concrete" example of the failures you're worried about?
I think the possibility of "catastrophic failure", as you put it, should be worked out in the R&D phase, either with an in-house car or with a well-informed and willing client who has been made aware that they are pushing the envelope and that things may go pear-shaped in a big way (at that point, the terms of what who should and should not be liable for what would, ideally, be spelled out in writing and agreed to by both parties).
Once a part/package is "in production", it should have enough R&D behind it that the probability of catastrophic failure is close enough to zero that the shop will be willing to step up. If they've done their job, and they have sufficient data and miles logged to stand behind the product on the limited budgets most shops have (even "bigger" shops), they won't be afraid to back up their work.
At the same time, if the car is a one-off "Frankencar" with parts from 3 or 4 different vendors, how can any vendor (or OEM) really stand behind a car like that? or a computer like that? or a bicycle like that?
I'll go a step further and point out that if your vendor is selling you a custom dyno-tune or a 1-off part, you should already be aware that you are the long-term R&D ... YOU ARE THE GUINEA PIG, and even if he's done a dozen or more custom tunes, yours is still unique, and there is no other car out there running your "race tune" or "super street tune" to pull data from ... either that, or you're paying extra for a "canned" tune. You can't have your cake and eat it too, you know?
So ... not sure if that answers your question, but if it doesn't - maybe give me a more "concrete" example of the failures you're worried about?
12-17-2010, 07:30 PM
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Once a part/package is "in production", it should have enough R&D behind it that the probability of catastrophic failure is close enough to zero that the shop will be willing to step up. If they've done their job, and they have sufficient data and miles logged to stand behind the product on the limited budgets most shops have (even "bigger" shops), they won't be afraid to back up their work.
