no more brake dust on wheels

[tberry]

How about using EBC greenstuff brake pads or something? Those kevlar pads are supposed to reduce brake dust (I had them no my A4) and they worked very well....about 50% less dust.

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[peet]

RUN DON'T WALK from EBC greenstuff!!!

I personally trashed two sets of rotors before I wised up! Other fellow (former) BMW folks did the same!! big bad mojo product.

Peet

[20FHK02]

Originally posted by tberry
How about using EBC greenstuff brake pads or something? Those kevlar pads are supposed to reduce brake dust (I had them no my A4) and they worked very well....about 50% less dust.

Yea they work well because they grinde and wear the rotors instead of themselves.

[MB-BOB]

This subject comes up every other week, and in two or three previous threads, it has been writen that the reason brake dust accumulates is because of static electricity.

If that theory is true, then any product that cuts down on the conductivity of the wheels to static electricity should help, provided the treatment doesn't damage the wheels.

Several folks have noticed improvement simply by waxing the wheels. It will also be interesting to see if the Pledge trick works, too. (Pledge is also part wax... for woodwork.)

Other ideas...

I keep a spray can of "Static Guard" in my office to eliminate "static cling" from clothing during the winter months. I intend to clean my wheels this weekend and coat a small spot with this product to see if it remains clean compared to the rest of the wheel. (I'll spray a small cloth and apply it behind the outer part of the rim.)

Also, there are several laundry products that are used in the dryer that also eliminate static cling. These products come in a variety of forms, from liquids to disposable "sheets." We use "Bounce" in the disposable sheet form. I wonder if this would work, too?

My OEM brake pads work just fine, so I'm not inclined to replace them, just to minimize the brake dust problem, especially while my brakes are under warranty. (IMO, using aftermarket pads that destroy the discs will not be covered when you seek to have the discs replaced under warranty.) If these other remedies work without harming the clear coat on the wheels, then so much the better.

[vadim]

Originally posted by MB-BOB
This subject comes up every other week, and in two or three previous threads, it has been writen that the reason brake dust accumulates is because of static electricity.

If that theory is true, then any product that cuts down on the conductivity of the wheels to static electricity should help, provided the treatment doesn't damage the wheels.

Several folks have noticed improvement simply by waxing the wheels. It will also be interesting to see if the Pledge trick works, too. (Pledge is also part wax... for woodwork.)

Other ideas...

I keep a spray can of "Static Guard" in my office to eliminate "static cling" from clothing during the winter months. I intend to clean my wheels this weekend and coat a small spot with this product to see if it remains clean compared to the rest of the wheel. (I'll spray a small cloth and apply it behind the outer part of the rim.)

Also, there are several laundry products that are used in the dryer that also eliminate static cling. These products come in a variety of forms, from liquids to disposable "sheets." We use "Bounce" in the disposable sheet form. I wonder if this would work, too?

My OEM brake pads work just fine, so I'm not inclined to replace them, just to minimize the brake dust problem, especially while my brakes are under warranty. (IMO, using aftermarket pads that destroy the discs will not be covered when you seek to have the discs replaced under warranty.) If these other remedies work without harming the clear coat on the wheels, then so much the better.

This "static electricity" concept won't work here. Wheels and brake calipers, being metal, are conductors - they don't hold any charge, nor can they be charged by rubbing against other metal or non-conductive parts. So applying some conductive coating (that's what all these anti-static sprays essentially are) is pointless.

[CHECKMATE]

Testing Pledge in one spot, Endust in another. Will advise. OEM brake pads may be a dust nuisance, but are clearly engineered to provide good performance with the braking system. BTW have used Endust on my Healey wires and ease of cleaning noticeably improved.

[MB-BOB]

Originally posted by vadim
This "static electricity" concept won't work here. Wheels and brake calipers, being metal, are conductors - they don't hold any charge, nor can they be charged by rubbing against other metal or non-conductive parts. So applying some conductive coating (that's what all these anti-static sprays essentially are) is pointless.

Vadim, I'm not an electrician, but I think we're talking about applying a NON-Conductive coating to the wheels, or something that prevents "charged" brake dust particles from being attracted to the "conductive" wheels. If the theory holds, either the wheels or the dust particles have a charge opposite to the other component.

Doesn't the metallic disc, rubbing against the organic (non-metallic) pads, create the static electricity? If so, then brake pad particles sluffed off should be "charged," too, and fall on the nearest conductive object (wheels). If changing to different compound pads minimises the problem, then doesn't that indicate the OEM pads create the static electricity? I'm no authority on this, just asking the question.

There is another current thread on this topic in the Detailing forum. The gurus there are also saying it is a static electricity problem.

[JustinTRW]

Well, MB-Bob asked us in the detailing forum to lend our advice, take it for what you will. I advise against using Pledge on your wheels. Use the correct product for the job, not a household contraption.

Here are some reasons...
- bad silicone content: generally the enemy of paint shops. If you need to have your wheel painted at any time or anything, the paint will not bond. Let the shop know before hand, because they will have to charge you extra time to get all of it off.
- yellowing effect: over time, it will yellow your wheels
- will attract dust: silicones attract dust like crazy, spray it on your paint if you dare. you will be sorry.
- longevity: silcone oil shines like crazy but doens't last that long. you have no real protection and might as well use a real sealant.
- harm to surrounding areas: Pledge is a spray. You're saying you didn't get a drop on the tires, paint, or rotors? Please. The petroleum distillate content could be harmful.

A lot of guys are carshows use Pledge because it shines like crazy. However, if the same time spent spraying it on, a much better product can be used.

[mdp c230k]

MB-bob, I don't think rotors are covered by warranty anyway. But the thicker the better so less wear is more important than dust for safety sake.

[CHECKMATE]

Don't spray it on-wipe it on---lightly! In five years I have seen no yellowing effect on the previously mentioned wires. Whether this works or not is TBD. Not even sure if either product contains silicones-will check labels.

[vadim]

Originally posted by MB-BOB
Vadim, I'm not an electrician, but I think we're talking about applying a NON-Conductive coating to the wheels, or something that prevents "charged" brake dust particles from being attracted to the "conductive" wheels.

Non-conductive substance will make things worse, not better.
Charged brake dust particles can't get attracted to bare metal, at least they won't stick since they will instantly lose their charge on contact.
If the nature of this bonding is indeed electrostatic, then applying a non-conductive layer between wheels and charged particles will help the particles stay charged for a much longer time.

In our case, the clear coating may be that insulator that makes the charged particles stick to the rims.

A perfect example - rub a balloon against your hair and put it against a wall. It will stick, as paint or wallpaper are non-conductive materials. Now, do the same and try to make it stick to a metal object - won't do: metal is conductive.

So the trick is to provide the charged particles with some way to exchange their charge with the oppositely charged surface. The only way to do it is to create a conductive layer that will facilitate charge drain on contact. When the charge is equalized, electrostatic adhesion disappears.

If the theory holds, either the wheels or the dust particles have a charge opposite to the other component.

Doesn't the metallic disc, rubbing against the organic (non-metallic) pads, create the static electricity?

No, it doesn't. Conductive materials don't get charged by rubbing.

If so, then brake pad particles sluffed off should be "charged," too, and fall on the nearest conductive object (wheels). If changing to different compound pads minimises the problem, then doesn't that indicate the OEM pads create the static electricity? I'm no authority on this, just asking the question.

My guess is that dust particles may get charged by turbulent air flows that occur between the pads and the rims. But, again, I'm not at all sure that the nature of this bonding is electrostatic.

There is another current thread on this topic in the Detailing forum. The gurus there are also saying it is a static electricity problem.

[Kar don]

Never ever use pledge on anything besides wood. Dont be lazy, put a good coat of sealant on your rims like Zaino, klasse, or meguiars #20. These will make cleaning your rims a snap with just regular car wash and water! I actually find with Zaino, if i hose my rims off after driving i get much less dust build up, I usually wait about 30 min after driving too allow the rotors to cool. However I usually dont do this because I just wash the rims weekly with an old mitt. Actually I know someone that used to spray tire wet on their lexus ES300 rims, they had the special coach rims which are polish and clearcoated. After a year his rims became very dull and started peeling. He also used some type of wheel cleaner on them too. rims have the same finish as a car, treat ur rims like u would treat your paint.

[Buellwinkle]

Vadim, interesting theory but I have chrome wheels and I get the same amount of dust as before when I had painted wheels.

Alboston, I tried Klasse glaze and AIO on my wheels and they looked great for a few hours but it did nothing to repel dust, maybe even attracted it sooner.

If you want to reduce the dust and you insists on using the brakes, no amount of oils, waxes, or magic potions are going to do the trick as well as a good set of aftermarket pads short of dust sheilds and I don't think anyone wants to go there.

[JustinTRW]

Buellwinkle is generally correct. What it will do however is fill the pores of the wheel which allows the brake dust to rinse off much more easily.

[vadim]

Originally posted by Buellwinkle
Vadim, interesting theory but I have chrome wheels and I get the same amount of dust as before when I had painted wheels.

So this confirms that static electricity is not the reason of dust accumulation...


As for pores, I'm not sure if the polymer clear coating used on wheels is that porous... at least when I wipe the dust off using a paper towel, the surface gets clean enough...

If you leave brake dust long enough on the rims, it will coke. Once this happens, it becomes a hundred times more difficult to get it off, as the bond is extremely strong. Waxing definitely hepls to avoid this.

[viper]

Here is the MSDS for Pledge. It does not contain silicone. Check the section on "Reactivity Data". It does not react with anything. Therefore it is safe to use on wheels.



S C JOHNSON -- LEMON PLEDGE, 14468
MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET
NSN: 793000N044582
Manufacturer's CAGE: 32204
Part No. Indicator: A
Part Number/Trade Name: LEMON PLEDGE, 14468
=================================================
General Information
=================================================
Company's Name: S C JOHNSON
Company's Street: 1525 HOWE ST
Company's City: RACINE
Company's State: WI
Company's Country: US
Company's Zip Code: 53403
Company's Emerg Ph #: 414-631-2777
Company's Info Ph #: 414-631-2777
Record No. For Safety Entry: 001
Tot Safety Entries This Stk#: 001
Status: SMJ
Date MSDS Prepared: 04JAN89
Safety Data Review Date: 05SEP95
MSDS Serial Number: BTMDC
Hazard Characteristic Code: F1
=================================================
Ingredients/Identity Information
=================================================
Proprietary: NO
Ingredient: HYDROTREATED HEAVY NAPHTHA (PETROLEUM); (ISOPARAFFINIC
HYDROCARBON SOLVENT)
Ingredient Sequence Number: 01
Percent: 20
NIOSH (RTECS) Number: 1002859HN
CAS Number: 64742-48-9
OSHA PEL: N/K (FP N)
ACGIH TLV: N/K (FP N)
-------------------------------------
Proprietary: NO
Ingredient: PROPANE, 2-METHYL-; (ISOBUTANE)
Ingredient Sequence Number: 02
Percent: 20
NIOSH (RTECS) Number: TZ4300000
CAS Number: 75-28-5
OSHA PEL: N/K (FP N)
ACGIH TLV: N/K (FP N)
-------------------------------------
Proprietary: NO
Ingredient: PROPANE
Ingredient Sequence Number: 03
Percent: 20
NIOSH (RTECS) Number: TX2275000
CAS Number: 74-98-6
OSHA PEL: 1000 PPM
ACGIH TLV: SIMPLE ASPHYXIANT
-------------------------------------
Proprietary: NO
Ingredient: BUTANE
Ingredient Sequence Number: 04
Percent: 20
NIOSH (RTECS) Number: EJ4200000
CAS Number: 106-97-8
OSHA PEL: 800 PPM
ACGIH TLV: 800 PPM
=================================================
Physical/Chemical Characteristics
=================================================
Appearance And Odor: DISPENSED AS A SPRAY MIST W/LEMON ODOR.
Specific Gravity: 0.9
Solubility In Water: MODERATE
Percent Volatiles By Volume: N/A
=================================================
Fire and Explosion Hazard Data
=================================================
Flash Point: SUPP DATA
Flash Point Method: TCC
Extinguishing Media: FOAM, CO*2, DRY CHEMICAL, WATER FOG.
Special Fire Fighting Proc: USE NIOSH/MSHA APPRVD SCBA & FULL PROT EQUIP
(FP N). NORMAL FIRE FIGHTING PROCS MAY BE USED. FIGHT FIRE FROM MAX DIST/
PROTECTED AREA. COOL & USE CAUT (SUPDAT)
Unusual Fire And Expl Hazrds: NO SPECIAL HAZARDS KNOWN.
=================================================
Reactivity Data
=================================================
Stability: YES
Cond To Avoid (Stability): NONE KNOWN
Materials To Avoid: NONE KNOWN
Hazardous Decomp Products: WHEN EXPOSED TO FIRE, PRODUCES NORMAL PRODUCTS
OF COMBUSTION.
Hazardous Poly Occur: NO
Conditions To Avoid (Poly): NOT RELEVANT
=================================================
Health Hazard Data
=================================================
LD50-LC50 Mixture: NONE SPECIFIED BY MANUFACTURER.
Route Of Entry - Inhalation: NO
Route Of Entry - Skin: NO
Route Of Entry - Ingestion: NO
Health Haz Acute And Chronic: NO INFORMATION GIVEN BY MANUFACTURER.
Carcinogenicity - NTP: NO
Carcinogenicity - IARC: NO
Carcinogenicity - OSHA: NO
Explanation Carcinogenicity: NOT RELEVANT
Signs/Symptoms Of Overexp: NONE SPECIFIED BY MANUFACTURER.
Med Cond Aggravated By Exp: NONE SPECIFIED BY MANUFACTURER.
Emergency/First Aid Proc: INGEST:CALL MD IMMEDIATELY (FP N). INHAL: REMOVE
IMMEDIATELY FLUSH W/POTABLE WATER FOR A MINIMUM OF 15 MINUTES, SEEK
ASSISTANCE FROM MD (FP N). SKIN:FLUSH W/COPIOUS AMOUNTS OF WATER. CALL MD
(FP N).
=================================================
Precautions for Safe Handling and Use
=================================================
Steps If Matl Released/Spill: ELIMINATE ALL IGNITION SOURCES. RINSE
AFFECTED AREA THOROUGHLY W/WATER.
Neutralizing Agent: NONE SPECIFIED BY MANUFACTURER.
Waste Disposal Method: DISPOSE OF AEROSOL CAN BY WRAPPING & PLACING IN
TRASH. DO NOT PUNCTURE OR BURN CONTAINER. DISPOSAL MUST BE I/A/W FEDERAL,
STATE & LOCAL REGULATIONS.
Precautions-Handling/Storing: KEEP OUT OF REACH OF CHILDREN. DO NOT
PRESSURIZE, CUT, HEAT, WELD OR EXPOSE CONTAINER TO FLAME; EXPLOSION COULD
OCCUR.
Other Precautions: CAUTION:FLAMMABLE. CONTENTS UNDER PRESSURE. DO NOT SET
ON STOVE OR RADIATOR OR KEEP WHERE TEMPERATURE WILL EXCEED 120F AS
CONTAINER MAY BURST. DO NOT PUNCTURE OF THROW IN FIRE.
=================================================
Control Measures
=================================================
Respiratory Protection: NO SPECIAL REQUIREMENTS UNDER NORMAL USE
CONDITIONS. NIOSH/MSHA APPROVED RESPIRATOR APPROPRIATE FOR EXPOSURE OF
CONCERN (FP N).
Ventilation: GENERAL ROOM VENTILATION ADEQUATE.
Protective Gloves: IMPERVIOUS GLOVES (FP N).
Eye Protection: NONE LISTED BY MFR.
Other Protective Equipment: NO SPECIAL REQUIREMENTS UNDER NORMAL USE.
Work Hygienic Practices: NONE SPECIFIED BY MANUFACTURER.
Suppl. Safety & Health Data: FL PT:<20F,<-7C (PROPELLANT). FIRE FIGHT
PROC:WHEN APPROACHING OR HANDLING FIRE-EXPOSED CONTAINERS.
=================================================
Transportation Data
=================================================
=================================================
Disposal Data
=================================================
=================================================
Label Data
=================================================
Label Required: YES
Technical Review Date: 18OCT93
Label Date: 14OCT93
Label Status: G
Common Name: LEMON PLEDGE, 14468
Chronic Hazard: NO
Signal Word: DANGER!
Acute Health Hazard-Slight: X
Contact Hazard-Slight: X
Fire Hazard-Severe: X
Reactivity Hazard-None: X
Special Hazard Precautions: EXTREMELY FLAMMABLE. KEEP OUT OF REACH OF
CHILDREN. ACUTE:NONE LISTED. CHRONIC:NONE LISTED BY MANUFACTURER.
Protect Eye: Y
Protect Skin: Y
Protect Respiratory: Y
Label Name: S C JOHNSON
Label Street: 1525 HOWE ST
Label City: RACINE
Label State: WI
Label Zip Code: 53403
Label Country: US
Label Emergency Number: 414-631-2777

[CHECKMATE]

Pledge:
-Used to remove dust
-Contains no wax or silicones
-Does not react with finishing compounds (furniture clear coat etc.)
-Does not react with metal surfaces (works great for removing stains and smudges from stainless steel)
-Does not leave a residue after application
-Does not create a build up after repeated applications
-Water soluble
-Will form a barrier between the carbon dust and wheel surface

Probably will not prevent at least some pad dust accumulation, but should make rinse off a quick job.

Current test in progress on my wheels

Have we thrashed this horse to its knees?

[Kar don]

use whatever you want on your rims, however i will not use something that contains NAPTHA (lighter fluid) on my rims. Rims get very hot, therefore pledge will probably burn off very quickly. It will make a nice show on the highway when your rim catches a quick flame for the driver next to you. Its your car, do what you want.

[JustinTRW]

Checkmate - not all of your facts are correct, however my "fact" about silicone was obviously wrong.

Viper - Are you the one who uses Simple Green to clean your wheels? Yeah, that's harmful. All I know is that my wheels are shinier and in better condition than yours. Your statement that pledge "doesn't react" with anything may be true, but it still does not mean it will not harm your clearcoat. Get some 3M rubbing compound and rub in into black paint and then wipe off. See what happens. It doesn't "react" to anything either.

Well, you see...we still have a division between the professional detailers and enthuisiasts (i.e. AlBoston) and everyone else. I guess I was confused between silicone and petroleum. Still, petroleum is just as greasy and shiny. It will build up. If you guys are so confident about Pledge, why don't you spray your hood with it? The clear coat on the hood and on the wheels is essentially the same.

My tone has come off rather rash, I don't intend any rudeness to anyone, just stating my opinion. You guys can use whatever you'd like on your car because it's yours and not mine.

[viper]

Originally posted by AlBoston
use whatever you want on your rims, however i will not use something that contains NAPTHA (lighter fluid) on my rims. Rims get very hot, therefore pledge will probably burn off very quickly. It will make a nice show on the highway when your rim catches a quick flame for the driver next to you. Its your car, do what you want.

Then you can say you really do drive a HOT car.

[mdp c230k]

Originally posted by AlBoston
use whatever you want on your rims, however i will not use something that contains NAPTHA (lighter fluid) on my rims. Rims get very hot, therefore pledge will probably burn off very quickly. It will make a nice show on the highway when your rim catches a quick flame for the driver next to you. Its your car, do what you want.

Funny! Only one problem, the naptha evaporates almost instantly. It is gone before you even get back in the car.

[viper]

Originally posted by JustinTRW


Well, you see...we still have a division between the professional detailers and enthuisiasts (i.e. AlBoston) and everyone else. I guess I was confused between silicone and petroleum. Still, petroleum is just as greasy and shiny. It will build up. If you guys are so confident about Pledge, why don't you spray your hood with it? The clear coat on the hood and on the wheels is essentially the same.

My tone has come off rather rash, I don't intend any rudeness to anyone, just stating my opinion. You guys can use whatever you'd like on your car because it's yours and not mine.

You are not rude just misinformed. Back up your statements with fact and not some third party observations.

When you drive your car through a puddle you get more than just water. You get an assortment of volatile compounds that may react with all your painted surfaces. Same goes with the nice assortment of hydrocarbons etc. in the air we breathe and which also touches your paint. Truth is the quality of the water with which you wash your car is also suspect. Do you think your tap water is pure H2O ? There are all kinds of chemicals in your water that on a molecular scale do cause degradation to your paint finish. On a molecular level everything interacts with your vehicle. Its all a matter of degree. I know this from my engineering classes in basic chemistry. So in reality when I hear the "purists" saying don't use certain "chemically neutral" products like Pledge I have to laugh. Water is not chemically neutral and either is Zaino believe it or not.

And by the way JustinTRW I do use Simple Green and have not had a problem. I rinse it off completely like you are supposed to. Those that can't or don't read package directions have the problems.

[Buellwinkle]

I use naptha to clean finished surfaces I'm repairing because unlike water or alcohol it does not leave any residue of it's own and evaporates very quickly and doesn't affect some delicate surfaces like wood. I doubt that once you wipe off excess that it would in anyway be flamible as it would evaporate before you had a chance to ignite it. Just don't use it while smoking or near any open flames.

[Kar don]

Originally posted by viper
You are not rude just misinformed. Back up your statements with fact and not some third party observations.

When you drive your car through a puddle you get more than just water. You get an assortment of volatile compounds that may react with all your painted surfaces. Same goes with the nice assortment of hydrocarbons etc. in the air we breathe and which also touches your paint. Truth is the quality of the water with which you wash your car is also suspect. Do you think your tap water is pure H2O ? There are all kinds of chemicals in your water that on a molecular scale do cause degradation to your paint finish. On a molecular level everything interacts with your vehicle. Its all a matter of degree. I know this from my engineering classes in basic chemistry. So in reality when I hear the "purists" saying don't use certain "chemically neutral" products like Pledge I have to laugh. Water is not chemically neutral and either is Zaino believe it or not.

And by the way JustinTRW I do use Simple Green and have not had a problem. I rinse it off completely like you are supposed to. Those that can't or don't read package directions have the problems.

If you want to safely repel brake dust, just use rain-x wheel protectant. It works pretty good. Using simple green will dull your rims, just not as noticiable on silver painted rims. You will notice more on chrome rims and polished rims.

[JustinTRW]

Yes of course. Your statements in the middle paragraph are generally correct. Therefore, my premise to anything that goes with detailing is to use the least harmful product for the job that is trying to be accomplished. I need to wash my car? Water and a few capsfull of car wash per gallon is about what I need. I don't need a degreaser. Simple green compromises the clear coat a lot more than a car wash solution. We don't know the long term effects, and that's why you find automotive detailing enthuisiasts using it for the purpose that you do. I know people who have had their wheels ruined and they used more conservative methods than you. I'm in SoCal, it never rains, hehe. The only water my car has seen is directly from my hose. I generally avoid puddles merely because of water spots (guess what they are caused by).

BTW, I just realized that for the ingrediants of Pledge, only the potentially harmful ingrediants must be listed right? If that is the case, then silicone oil would not have been listed. Anyway, it the end, it doesn't even matter if Pledge causes any harm. I can apply any of the numerous products Ali's has mentioned and achieve superior protection and longevity.

Viper, I don't care if I'm right or wrong. So can you spray Pledge on your car (or a black car if you can get access) and see what happens? Use it on about half of the hood so you can compare. I'd like to see the results. A black surface will show everything more easily than silver painted wheels. I don't know how harmful Pledge is, but you will certainly find out if it is the product you hope.