C350 Next Mods

[Drop-a-Daimler]

Dudes, I am not the only hopeless one. I am talking about the drag strip on this one, forget the coilovers, and a stock Beamer. Based on the math, the C350 is already making 300 at the crank and 250 at the wheels. There is a 3mph difference in trap speeds right now with where I am. With $1500 headers the cars run the same 1/4 mile E/T. Why is that so hard to deal with?

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[Drop-a-Daimler]

I'll boil it down since nobody reads the long posts. The car makes 300bhp out of the factory. It only needs 50bhp more to run a 13.5@104. Drop 100 lbs. and all you need is 30bhp worth of mods. Headers and a chip is all you need. Done.

[e1000]

Originally Posted by Drop-a-Daimler

I'll boil it down since nobody reads the long posts. The car makes 300bhp out of the factory. It only needs 50bhp more to run a 13.5@104. Drop 100 lbs. and all you need is 30bhp worth of mods. Headers and a chip is all you need. Done.

we don't produce 300hp from the factory.

[Drop-a-Daimler]

Originally Posted by e1000

we don't produce 300hp from the factory.

I didn't think so either although many have said it was severely underrated. But the numbers show 255 hp at the rear wheels. Basic physics says it take 255 hp at the wheels to move a 3700 lb. car to a 14.2@100 in the 1/4 mile. At 18% frictional loss that means 300 hp at the crank. By the same token, if this math is not accurate, then the 335i does not have 300hp at the rear wheels (and 354bhp, which is what everyone here says is true). What's not to love?

[e1000]

math functions can give you a good estimate of what happens and a general idea of what goes on, but these types of equations can't account for everything. both MB and BMW tend to make cars that have flater, wider torque curves that while produce quicker times, may not have the same peak horsepower numbers as other cars.

[nlpamg]

Originally Posted by e1000

math functions can give you a good estimate of what happens and a general idea of what goes on, but these types of equations can't account for everything. both MB and BMW tend to make cars that have flater, wider torque curves that while produce quicker times, may not have the same peak horsepower numbers as other cars.

there's no use in arguing with him Eric. he thinks everything is so cut and dry... and that he know EVERYTHING about the w203 and the 350 engine. I've never seen anyone as delusional as him with the overuse of his grossly naive hypothetical figures butchered from magazines. especially since he's already admitted he's ****ty at math.

it's probably why he's doing all the magazine racing and is now talking about quarter mile and drag times when at first he was all up on "track times" and lateral acceleration only to later admit that he'll never track the car.

[Drop-a-Daimler]

Originally Posted by nlpamg

...overuse of his grossly naive hypothetical figures....

That's me ... and about every race team ever assembled who chose to use those same equations and processes but hey, you are welcome to stick to voodoo. You can understand it or shake a chicken leg at your car. But anyway, talk about getting smoked in your C-Class, have you'all seen this video?

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/2...72011fd49f.htm

[nlpamg]

Originally Posted by Drop-a-Daimler

That's me ... and about ever race team ever assembled who chose to use those same equations and processes but hey, you are welcome to stick to voodoo. You can understand it or shake a chicken leg at your car. But anyway, talk about getting smoked in your C-Class, have you'all seen this video?

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/2...72011fd49f.htm

hardly... so you have experience on a race team? oh no? that's right, none! but I'm sure the Williams F1 team would love to have you... b/c they really do all their calculations without any help from sophisticated computers and software packages.

are you a mechanical engineer? didn't think so. while you're still using high school physics equations you learned from wikipedia, you're not taking into account all the other factors that go into speed. but, you seem to know EVERYTHING! so I won't argue. aside from the fact that you must be going through some sort of mid-life crisis and need to beat your chest with imaginary and hypothetical figures for things you dream of doing.

[Drop-a-Daimler]

Originally Posted by nlpamg

hardly... so you have experience on a race team? oh no? that's right, none! are you a mechanical engineer? didn't think so. while you're still using high school physics equations you learned from wikipedia, you're not taking into account all the other factors that go into speed. but, you seem to know EVERYTHING! so I won't argue. aside from the fact that you must be going through some sort of mid-life crisis and need to beat your chest with imaginary and hypothetical figures.

Dude, you got serious some issues. Do you agree that high performance and racing begin with physics? Or you begin with guess work, opinion and crossed fingers? Not once have I said this is exactly how it is; in fact I have repeatedly asked where the fallacies are because it sure seems interesting to me as I try to pick the best mods to achieve the performance goal I have set for my car. And what is it to you that I am here trying to understand the basics of something I have repeatedly said I am new to (modding Benzes)? Instead of you presenting anything in the way of facts to argue these hypothetical scenarios (and I agree e1000, these are just rough estimations of the real world) are wrong -- which is what I have been looking for -- you chose each time to just say I am an idiot and I am wrong -- but back it up with nothing more than a smug attitude. If you don't like my rambling that's cool but to stalk each of my posts with nothing more factual than insults is kind of strange and kind of creepy. And you seem to want to get into experience stuff too. I try to leave that stuff out but it's kind of ironic that you mention racing and engineering because I did spend two years campaigning a car at the track and I studied mechanical engineering in college although I am no longer in that field. I have also said I'm not so good at either but you have shown so far that you do not have any understanding of both. I have been around the track a few times, on the dyno a few dozen times, and down the drag strip a few hundred times. I have built two cars and one motorcycle that I have raced. And I didn't get my equations from the Wiki, I wrote them in Perl from my physics class. What have you done that your resume is so spectacular that all you need to do is say "you're an idiot" and it should be taken as gospel?

[nlpamg]

Originally Posted by Drop-a-Daimler

Dude, you got serious some issues. Do you agree that high performance and racing begin with physics? Or you begin with guess work, opinion and crossed fingers? Not once have I said this is exactly how it is; in fact I have repeatedly asked where the fallacies are because it sure seems interesting to me as I try to pick the best mods to achieve the performance goal I have set for my car. And what is it to you that I am here trying to understand the basics of something I have repeatedly said I am new to (modding Benzes)? Instead of you presenting anything in the way of facts to argue these hypothetical scenarios (and I agree e1000, these are just rough estimations of the real world) are wrong -- which is what I have been looking for -- you chose each time to just say I am an idiot and I am wrong -- but back it up with nothing more than a smug attitude. If you don't like my rambling that's cool but to stalk each of my posts with nothing more factual than insults is kind of strange and kind of creepy. And you seem to want to get into experience stuff too. I try to leave that stuff out but it's kind of ironic that you mention racing and engineering because I did spend two years campaigning a car at the track and I studied mechanical engineering in college although I am no longer in that field. I have also said I'm not so good at either but you have shown so far that you do not have any understanding of both. I have been around the track a few times, on the dyno a few dozen times, and down the drag strip a few hundred times. I have built two cars and one motorcycle that I have raced. And I didn't get my equations from the Wiki, I wrote them in Perl from my physics class. What have you done that your resume is so spectacular that all you need to do is say "you're an idiot" and it should be taken as gospel?

oooh busting out your resume huh? how nice. mechnical engineering in college, well I hope you went to UVA. I have a degree in engineering (not mechanical) from one of the top 3 engineering schools in the nation and a doctorate in an unrelated field.

you've shown that you're delusional about all aspects of modding cars. from your previous posts, I've seen what you've built, nothing more than raised clunkers appropo to northern virginia. no matter what's been given or told to you, you still insist on beating a 335i, trying to streetrace 16 year olds and grandmothers and trying to magazine race cars all day.

for someone that claims he has that much experience, you really do come off as a naive 16 year old.

btw, "stalking your posts"? you think far far too highly of yourself. you have two idiotic threads where you're magazine racing all day and just because I interject with statements to point out your blatant fallacies I'm stalking you? far from it.

[rlee02135]

Originally Posted by Drop-a-Daimler

That's me ... and about every race team ever assembled who chose to use those same equations and processes but hey, you are welcome to stick to voodoo. You can understand it or shake a chicken leg at your car. But anyway, talk about getting smoked in your C-Class, have you'all seen this video?

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/2...72011fd49f.htm

that was an awesome video....

[Drop-a-Daimler]

Originally Posted by nlpamg

oooh busting out your resume huh? how nice. mechnical engineering in college, well I hope you went to UVA. I have a degree in engineering (not mechanical) from one of the top 3 engineering schools in the nation and a doctorate in an unrelated field.

you've shown that you're delusional about all aspects of modding cars. from your previous posts, I've seen what you've built, nothing more than raised clunkers appropo to northern virginia. no matter what's been given or told to you, you still insist on beating a 335i, trying to streetrace 16 year olds and grandmothers and trying to magazine race cars all day.

for someone that claims he has that much experience, you really do come off as a naive 16 year old.

btw, "stalking your posts"? you think far far too highly of yourself. you have two idiotic threads where you're magazine racing all day and just because I interject with statements to point out your blatant fallacies I'm stalking you? far from it.

Whatever.

[nlpamg]

Originally Posted by Drop-a-Daimler

Whatever.

great response. I think the appropriate follow-up to that one is "your mom."

[Drop-a-Daimler]

Originally Posted by rlee02135

yep, the Kleemann headers will fit.

Dude, I think you were right about this one. Although I called them and they said they don't have a part for the W203 C350, I saw on another board where a guy is having Kleeman headers installed on his W204 C350. They should be interchangeable I would think? I have PM'd him for the PN#.

[rlee02135]

Originally Posted by Drop-a-Daimler

Dude, I think you were right about this one. Although I called them and they said they don't have a part for the W203 C350, I saw on another board where a guy is having Kleeman headers installed on his W204 C350. They should be interchangeable I would think? I have PM'd him for the PN#.

just order them...best way to find out

[e1000]

well just because it fits on the W204 dosen't necessarily mean it will fit on the W203. The big difference is that both the W204 and R171 SLK have dual pipes comming out the back. It could be that the headers are shaped differently depending on whether it's dual pipes going back or single.

lol, yeah Phil, I think Drop-a-Diamler needs to just go and pick on some slower cars and just be happy with what he's got. C350 isn't the quickest car out there, even among it's competitors. If I had a chance though, I'd still buy it again. It's definitely quick enough, sips gas on the highway, sporty, and looks great as well. Lets face it, there are cars even quicker than the 335 for the price, but everything is a give and take.

BTW drop, if you really want to get into acceleration theory, look into how tall our final drive is.

[FrankW]

Originally Posted by Drop-a-Daimler

I didn't think so either although many have said it was severely underrated. But the numbers show 255 hp at the rear wheels. Basic physics says it take 255 hp at the wheels to move a 3700 lb. car to a 14.2@100 in the 1/4 mile. At 18% frictional loss that means 300 hp at the crank. By the same token, if this math is not accurate, then the 335i does not have 300hp at the rear wheels (and 354bhp, which is what everyone here says is true). What's not to love?

can't stop laughing...where's your dyno on 350 making 255hp at the wheel? no one said the 335 makes 300hp at the wheel either. all the dyno shows the 335 putting down 270-280 depending on gearbox.

if you want to play with magazine numbers I'll play too. a stock C32 with 349hp traps 105-106 in the 1/4 miles. stock C350 268hp 6-spd traps 99-100 at best (auto would probably be around 98-99). That's 349 minus 268 equal 81hp, so you need 81hp to gain that 5-6 mph difference. Now lets look at the 335 stock 300hp factory rating (they dyno and proven around 320-330hp at least, so let's use that for reference). 335 traps 103-104 in 1/4 miles with 330hp which 320 minus 268 is 62hp, so you would need another 62hp to make up 3-4mph difference in the 1/4 mile. Now compare the C32 to the 335 which one traps at 105-106 and one traps at 103-104 stock. That's 20hp different for 1-2mph difference in the quarter mile. You can get 15hp from ECU, 15hp from headers and that puts you at 300 if you are lucky, but you are still short of 20-30hp from the stock 335 which maybe your trap speed will be 101-102 if you have a 6-spd, but if you have the auto which more than likely you will only be able to trap 100-101. However more HP is needed the faster you go, so these are just theories.

as I said in few occasion when ppl asked what's my expected trap time if I run the 1/4 mile. I always tell them around 110-111 is what I hope for.

[FrankW]

Originally Posted by e1000

well just because it fits on the W204 dosen't necessarily mean it will fit on the W203. The big difference is that both the W204 and R171 SLK have dual pipes comming out the back. It could be that the headers are shaped differently depending on whether it's dual pipes going back or single.

lol, yeah Phil, I think Drop-a-Diamler needs to just go and pick on some slower cars and just be happy with what he's got. C350 isn't the quickest car out there, even among it's competitors. If I had a chance though, I'd still buy it again. It's definitely quick enough, sips gas on the highway, sporty, and looks great as well. Lets face it, there are cars even quicker than the 335 for the price, but everything is a give and take.

BTW drop, if you really want to get into acceleration theory, look into how tall our final drive is.

that's what we are saying for the entire length of the tread.

[Drop-a-Daimler]

Originally Posted by FrankW

...You can get 15hp from ECU, 15hp from headers and that puts you at 300 if you are lucky, but you are still short of 20-30hp from the stock 335 ....

All the mocking aside, now we are getting somewhere! And I have been agreeing with what you say right here. We go ECU and headers and all we need is another 20 to 30. Lose 100 pounds or so and there you go, that drops you right into the same E/T and trap range!

[e1000]

not to harp but:

335i + procede = losing battle for the C350.

And i'd be willing to say that there are many, many more 335i's with procede than C-Classes with an ECU.

[Drop-a-Daimler]

Originally Posted by e1000

...335i + procede = losing battle for the C350...

Well I am the king of harping so no prob. And I think this is also something I have been wholeheartedly agreeing with all along, that the 335i is easier to mod, especially because it's FI and there are a lot of good BMW parts out there, and I'll never keep up with a properly modded one especially without some after market S/C. Ok, I may seem fanatical but you and Frank and rlee seem to very knowledgeable and willing to discuss (if not a little quick to mock an outsider with some radical ideas) and I am trying to learn. And I think we just agreed that the C350 with 100 pound diet, headers and an ECU upgrade could keep up with a stock 335i sedan. That's really all the point I'm trying to make here -- yet I am still an idiot it seems. But I can live with that.

[FrankW]

Originally Posted by Drop-a-Daimler

Well I am the king of harping so no prob. And I think this is also something I have been wholeheartedly agreeing with all along, that the 335i is easier to mod, especially because it's FI and there are a lot of good BMW parts out there, and I'll never keep up with a properly modded one especially without some after market S/C. Ok, I may seem fanatical but you and Frank and rlee seem to very knowledgeable and willing to discuss (if not a little quick to mock an outsider with some radical ideas) and I am trying to learn. And I think we just agreed that the C350 with 100 pound diet, headers and an ECU upgrade could keep up with a stock 335i sedan. That's really all the point I'm trying to make here -- yet I am still an idiot it seems. But I can live with that.

no we didn't. with headers and ecu you would still lose to the stock 335. 100lbs less or not.

[rlee02135]

just and call it a day...

[Drop-a-Daimler]

Originally Posted by FrankW

no we didn't. with headers and ecu you would still lose to the stock 335. 100lbs less or not.

Oh, sorry. I thought you wrote:

... stock C350 268hp ... That's 349 minus 268 equal 81hp, so you need 81hp to gain that 5-6 mph difference. ...the 335 ... dyno ... around 320-330hp ... 320 minus 268 is 62hp, so you would need another 62hp to make up 3-4mph difference in the 1/4 mile. ... You can get 15hp from ECU, 15hp from headers and that puts you at 300 ... but you are still short of 20-30hp from the stock 335 ...

That to me says it is your opinion that I can get it to 300 like I was hoping but still need to make up 20hp. So I say lightening it by 100 pounds equates to about 10 to 15 hp not needed to make the same E/T and trap speed. So losing 100 lbs, headers and ECU puts it within as little as 5bhp of matching a 335i. Yes? So maybe the challenge is how to pick up that extra 5bhp?

[TruTaing]

Im just curious, where would your weight loss program start?