Anybody got CEL because kleemann header?(M271)
10-26-2010, 02:30 PM
#26
MBWorld Fanatic!
i read through this thread and there didn't seem to be a clear answer for codes being thrown from having kleeman headers/cat in an m271.
dealership wants 1600 for new cat and sensor, and i want to tell them to put a hold on it so i can think it through. they also said that the air injection is throwing a code that could be related to the o2 sensor near the cat.
if i replace both, i'm not sure if this will fix the problem or create other problems.
is it safe to wait on this and drive with the CEL?
they said the cat is bad, but i'm not sure if i should believe it 100%...
any help? (thanks!)
10-26-2010, 04:16 PM
#27
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What code(s) did you get?
The problem with kleemann header is intermittent P0420 and it's different from car to car too...if the 02 sensor is bad, i would change that first before attempting to change the cat.
Is it safe to wait on this and drive with the CEL?
If it's P0420, then it's safe to drive...you just emit more polution.
The problem with kleemann header is intermittent P0420 and it's different from car to car too...if the 02 sensor is bad, i would change that first before attempting to change the cat.
Is it safe to wait on this and drive with the CEL?
If it's P0420, then it's safe to drive...you just emit more polution.
10-26-2010, 04:26 PM
#28
Super Moderator
mk - Does your car have a Kleeman Cat & headers fitted? If so I would do nothing. If you are getting a 420 it does not mean there is anything wrong with the post Cat O2 sensor. It means it's doing it's job. The pre Cat O2 sensor might be worn out & cycling too slowly.
What mileage on the Cat & O2 sensors? Any rattles from the Cat?
What mileage on the Cat & O2 sensors? Any rattles from the Cat?
10-26-2010, 05:47 PM
#29
MBWorld Fanatic!
mk - Does your car have a Kleeman Cat & headers fitted? If so I would do nothing. If you are getting a 420 it does not mean there is anything wrong with the post Cat O2 sensor. It means it's doing it's job. The pre Cat O2 sensor might be worn out & cycling too slowly.
What mileage on the Cat & O2 sensors? Any rattles from the Cat?
What mileage on the Cat & O2 sensors? Any rattles from the Cat?
If it is a normal error, how can this be prevented? (ecu tune?)
Also, the MB indie shop said that the Cat rattles. (does this mean that the internals are breaking down?.. if so, i'm guessing that I should get a replacement from Cory. only thing is I'm just over the 1-year warranty)
here are the codes:
2046-002 G3/2 (O2 sensor upstream of Kat), Operational readiness of sensor too late [P0134]
2046-016 Heating of component G3/2 (O2 sensor upstreat of Kat), O2 sensor too unreponsive [P0135]
201D-001 Catalytic converter Effect is insufficient. [P0420]
2047-001 Secondary air injection: malfunction (function chain), Air flow is too low. [P0410]
The shop is convinced that the issue is with a faulty Cat and when I contacted Cory at Kleemann, he says that the version that I have shouldn't have any problems. I've sent him the codes and am waiting to hear back. I'm not sure what to do between the two opinions.
thanks again for the quick response!
Last edited by Midnight Koop; 10-26-2010 at 05:50 PM.
10-26-2010, 06:23 PM
#31
Super Moderator
OK - I would change the upsteam O2 sensor. It's cooked
Kleeman should replace that Cat - 15K?????? - that's BS - have you heard the rattles in the Cat? If so it sounds as though the honeycomb has broken up.
If the Cat did not rattle I would leave it. Kleeman's Cats seem borderline.
Kleeman should replace that Cat - 15K?????? - that's BS - have you heard the rattles in the Cat? If so it sounds as though the honeycomb has broken up.
If the Cat did not rattle I would leave it. Kleeman's Cats seem borderline.
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; 10-26-2010 at 06:25 PM.
10-26-2010, 07:43 PM
#32
MBWorld Fanatic!
Contact Cory at Kleemann USA. His contact info is on the website. Kleemann is a good company and they will stand behind their products. Se what they can do for you.
10-26-2010, 07:48 PM
#33
MBWorld Fanatic!
Cory's Email:
"Is there any way you can tell me what the exact fault code is your dealer is seeing with in your car? I also saw on MBWorld, you said there's an air injection fault code as well- can you share that code number with me as well? Your dealer should have no problem sharing the fault code numbers with you.
Are you 100% sure the dealer removed the down pipe and visually inspected the catalyst core material? If they didn't, there's no way they can be 100% sure the catalyst is the problem.
The reason I ask these questions is I'd like to be 100% sure the cat in your car has indeed failed. The headers you have are the later versions, which we haven't had any problems with. The early production M271 headers used an inferior cat, and KLEEMANN switched catalyst manufacturers in 2007 to resolve this problem. I'd hate for you to replace cats, O2 sensors (which I don't think is necessary- the O2 sensor that is), etc. only to have the problem come back- I'm trying to avoid selling you something you might not need.
If you can provide me that information, it would be most helpful. Again, I'd hate for you to have to buy something you really don't need. In my experience, most dealers get "tunnel vision" when it comes to modified cars, and they are quick to point fingers. That's not to say your dealer/technician doesn't know what they're doing, but it's my job to make sure you aren't being fed erroneous information. "
"Is there any way you can tell me what the exact fault code is your dealer is seeing with in your car? I also saw on MBWorld, you said there's an air injection fault code as well- can you share that code number with me as well? Your dealer should have no problem sharing the fault code numbers with you.
Are you 100% sure the dealer removed the down pipe and visually inspected the catalyst core material? If they didn't, there's no way they can be 100% sure the catalyst is the problem.
The reason I ask these questions is I'd like to be 100% sure the cat in your car has indeed failed. The headers you have are the later versions, which we haven't had any problems with. The early production M271 headers used an inferior cat, and KLEEMANN switched catalyst manufacturers in 2007 to resolve this problem. I'd hate for you to replace cats, O2 sensors (which I don't think is necessary- the O2 sensor that is), etc. only to have the problem come back- I'm trying to avoid selling you something you might not need.
If you can provide me that information, it would be most helpful. Again, I'd hate for you to have to buy something you really don't need. In my experience, most dealers get "tunnel vision" when it comes to modified cars, and they are quick to point fingers. That's not to say your dealer/technician doesn't know what they're doing, but it's my job to make sure you aren't being fed erroneous information. "
10-26-2010, 07:49 PM
#34
MBWorld Fanatic!
My Reply:
"Hi Cory,
I just came from the dealer and they told me that they first noticed that the cat rattles internally, then when they looked inside, the "honey comb" was breaking down. They told me that the codes being thrown are caused by the kat. I'm attaching the printout of their diagnosis. In a gist, here are the codes:
2046-002 G3/2 (O2 sensor upstream of Kat), Operational readiness of sensor too late [P0134]
2046-016 Heating of component G3/2 (O2 sensor upstreat of Kat), O2 sensor too unreponsive [P0135]
201D-001 Catalytic converter Effect is insufficient. [P0420]
2047-001 Secondary air injection: malfunction (function chain), Air flow is too low. [P0410]
There are more details on the attached sheet
I'm not too familiar with cars to this degree, but the MB shop is confident that it is caused by a failed Kat. Please let me know if you can talk to your associates at Denmark about getting me a replacement if this is what I need. According to the shop, I can either replace the Kat and hope that no more problems arise OR go back to stock parts which I would hate to do.
Please get back to me at your earliest convenience."
"Hi Cory,
I just came from the dealer and they told me that they first noticed that the cat rattles internally, then when they looked inside, the "honey comb" was breaking down. They told me that the codes being thrown are caused by the kat. I'm attaching the printout of their diagnosis. In a gist, here are the codes:
2046-002 G3/2 (O2 sensor upstream of Kat), Operational readiness of sensor too late [P0134]
2046-016 Heating of component G3/2 (O2 sensor upstreat of Kat), O2 sensor too unreponsive [P0135]
201D-001 Catalytic converter Effect is insufficient. [P0420]
2047-001 Secondary air injection: malfunction (function chain), Air flow is too low. [P0410]
There are more details on the attached sheet
I'm not too familiar with cars to this degree, but the MB shop is confident that it is caused by a failed Kat. Please let me know if you can talk to your associates at Denmark about getting me a replacement if this is what I need. According to the shop, I can either replace the Kat and hope that no more problems arise OR go back to stock parts which I would hate to do.
Please get back to me at your earliest convenience."
10-26-2010, 07:49 PM
#35
MBWorld Fanatic!
Cory's Reply:
"Thanks a bunch for getting me that information.
Here's what I see:
Two of the fault codes you're getting for the primary (upstream) O2 sensor have absolutely nothing to do with the catalyst. Here's a brief explanation:
P2046-002: operational readiness of the sensor too late: This is a cold-start fault code, meaning the primary O2 sensor isn't getting up to temperature as quickly as the ECU would like to see. I see you also have a secondary air injection fault (smog pump) as well. The P2046 can be directly related to the air injection fault. The air injection pump simply injects air into the exhaust port of the cylinder head- this give a "false" lean condition which helps the O2 sensor and catalyst get up to temperature faster. The air pump typically only runs for the first 120 seconds after a cold-start.
P2046-016: Heating of component G3/2- O2 sensor unresponsive: This is another fault code that can be directly related to the air injection fault code. The O2 sensor does have a heater circuit built in, but this fault is saying the O2 sensor isn't getting hot enough, so the ECU thinks there is something wrong with the heater circuit- not an open, or short circuit, rather a problem with the heater circuit getting the O2 sensor up to the temperature the ECU wants to see.
To further investigate, your shop can pull what's called freeze-frame data which will tell you when exactly the faults happened, and what other sensor inputs such as coolant temp, etc. are doing, which helps pinpoint the problem. I very strongly suspect the two codes above are being set after cold-start.
P2047: Secondary air injection- air flow is too low: This could be either a failing air injection pump, an air injection valve which is sticking, or a broken, kinked, or loose hose going to the air injection valve.
All 3 of the codes above can be directly correlated to the air injection system malfunction. There is no possible way a collapsed catalyst can cause any of these faults. If these faults were present on the DOWNSTREAM sensor, I'd say yes, you do have a catalyst problem.
I have one more question- The header kits shipped with a spacer for the O2 sensor (picture attached)- this spacer is meant to be installed on the downstream O2 sensor, not the upstream sensor. It almost sounds like the spacer may have been installed on the upstream sensor, instead of the downstream (after the cat) sensor. Is there any way you can verify the spacer is indeed installed on the secondary sensor, and NOT the primary sensor?
P0420- THIS is the code that's related directly to the catalyst. It's basically saying that the signal the ECU is getting from the secondary O2 sensor is not within tolerance of what the ECU wants to see- typically a secondary O2 sensor outputs a steady 400-450 mV- if it's outputting a voltage signal higher than that (richer), the ECU thinks the catalyst isn't working. Now, a collapsed catalyst can certainly cause this fault code, but at the same time, the cats KLEEMANN use are 200 cell count (factory is 600), so the KLEEMANN cat doesn't function as well as the factory cat, and you will indeed get that same P0420 code with a cat that's 100% OK if that spacer isn't installed on the secondary O2 sensor. If the spacer IS installed on the secondary sensor, your shop will need to remove the down pipe and visually inspect it. Just hitting the pipes with a hammer and hearing a rattle is not a sufficient way to diagnose a collapsed cat- one must visually inspect it. I can't tell you how many times I've hammered on exhaust systems and heard rattles, only to find out it was a rock, or a loose connection, or (fill in the blank). A visual inspection is a must.
What I also notice is that all of these fault codes are "STORED", and not "CURRENT", meaning they did infact happen, but the cause of each fault code is is not currently present in the car. That doesn't mean a whole lot, but it is curious that none of the faults are current, which suggests the problems may be intermittent.
Generally speaking, a shop that tells you "you can replace (fill in the blank part) and HOPE it goes away", isn't diagnosing the problem, rather, they're just throwing parts at the car with the HOPE that it fixes the problem- this is obviously not the correct way to go about repairing a car. The shop your car is at really needs to take 15 minutes to take the down pipe off the car, and visually inspect the catalyst. There are a lot of variables involved here, so we need to be sure that #1: the components (mainly the spacer pictured) is installed on the proper sensor, and #2, visually verify the catalyst core material has indeed collapsed. If the spacer is not installed on the proper sensor, it can cause all of the faults you're getting (with the exception of the air injection fault). If the spacer IS installed on the proper sensor, the catalyst needs to be visually inspected. If the spacer is not installed at all, the car will set the P0420 fault code regardless if the cat is good or bad, so I can't stress how important it is to visually inspect that cat. These cats don't typically "Break down"- these are metallic cats, so when they fail, the core material usually collapses in on itself, and winds up at the bottom of the cat in a ball. Ceramic cats break apart, metallic cats do not.
At this point in time, I can't offer to cover the catalyst since we're 6 months out of warranty. We do have 2 options though:
Purchase a brand new down pipe/catalyst. I'd be willing to let it go for my cost price, which is $350.00.
I also have singular cats in stock for $190.00. This solution, however requires the cat that's in the car to be cut out of the down pipe, and the replacement welded in. This obviously represents quite a bit more labor compared to just replacing the down pipe- it could easily eclipse the $160.00 price difference.
Let me know what you'd like to do. The faults you're getting on the primary sensor and the air pump are not at all commonplace, and I suspect there's some other problem with the car. The P0420 code is related to the cat, but we need to make sure the spacer that came with the kit was installed on the correct sensor, and the core material has infact collapsed.
Thanks!"
"Thanks a bunch for getting me that information.
Here's what I see:
Two of the fault codes you're getting for the primary (upstream) O2 sensor have absolutely nothing to do with the catalyst. Here's a brief explanation:
P2046-002: operational readiness of the sensor too late: This is a cold-start fault code, meaning the primary O2 sensor isn't getting up to temperature as quickly as the ECU would like to see. I see you also have a secondary air injection fault (smog pump) as well. The P2046 can be directly related to the air injection fault. The air injection pump simply injects air into the exhaust port of the cylinder head- this give a "false" lean condition which helps the O2 sensor and catalyst get up to temperature faster. The air pump typically only runs for the first 120 seconds after a cold-start.
P2046-016: Heating of component G3/2- O2 sensor unresponsive: This is another fault code that can be directly related to the air injection fault code. The O2 sensor does have a heater circuit built in, but this fault is saying the O2 sensor isn't getting hot enough, so the ECU thinks there is something wrong with the heater circuit- not an open, or short circuit, rather a problem with the heater circuit getting the O2 sensor up to the temperature the ECU wants to see.
To further investigate, your shop can pull what's called freeze-frame data which will tell you when exactly the faults happened, and what other sensor inputs such as coolant temp, etc. are doing, which helps pinpoint the problem. I very strongly suspect the two codes above are being set after cold-start.
P2047: Secondary air injection- air flow is too low: This could be either a failing air injection pump, an air injection valve which is sticking, or a broken, kinked, or loose hose going to the air injection valve.
All 3 of the codes above can be directly correlated to the air injection system malfunction. There is no possible way a collapsed catalyst can cause any of these faults. If these faults were present on the DOWNSTREAM sensor, I'd say yes, you do have a catalyst problem.
I have one more question- The header kits shipped with a spacer for the O2 sensor (picture attached)- this spacer is meant to be installed on the downstream O2 sensor, not the upstream sensor. It almost sounds like the spacer may have been installed on the upstream sensor, instead of the downstream (after the cat) sensor. Is there any way you can verify the spacer is indeed installed on the secondary sensor, and NOT the primary sensor?
P0420- THIS is the code that's related directly to the catalyst. It's basically saying that the signal the ECU is getting from the secondary O2 sensor is not within tolerance of what the ECU wants to see- typically a secondary O2 sensor outputs a steady 400-450 mV- if it's outputting a voltage signal higher than that (richer), the ECU thinks the catalyst isn't working. Now, a collapsed catalyst can certainly cause this fault code, but at the same time, the cats KLEEMANN use are 200 cell count (factory is 600), so the KLEEMANN cat doesn't function as well as the factory cat, and you will indeed get that same P0420 code with a cat that's 100% OK if that spacer isn't installed on the secondary O2 sensor. If the spacer IS installed on the secondary sensor, your shop will need to remove the down pipe and visually inspect it. Just hitting the pipes with a hammer and hearing a rattle is not a sufficient way to diagnose a collapsed cat- one must visually inspect it. I can't tell you how many times I've hammered on exhaust systems and heard rattles, only to find out it was a rock, or a loose connection, or (fill in the blank). A visual inspection is a must.
What I also notice is that all of these fault codes are "STORED", and not "CURRENT", meaning they did infact happen, but the cause of each fault code is is not currently present in the car. That doesn't mean a whole lot, but it is curious that none of the faults are current, which suggests the problems may be intermittent.
Generally speaking, a shop that tells you "you can replace (fill in the blank part) and HOPE it goes away", isn't diagnosing the problem, rather, they're just throwing parts at the car with the HOPE that it fixes the problem- this is obviously not the correct way to go about repairing a car. The shop your car is at really needs to take 15 minutes to take the down pipe off the car, and visually inspect the catalyst. There are a lot of variables involved here, so we need to be sure that #1: the components (mainly the spacer pictured) is installed on the proper sensor, and #2, visually verify the catalyst core material has indeed collapsed. If the spacer is not installed on the proper sensor, it can cause all of the faults you're getting (with the exception of the air injection fault). If the spacer IS installed on the proper sensor, the catalyst needs to be visually inspected. If the spacer is not installed at all, the car will set the P0420 fault code regardless if the cat is good or bad, so I can't stress how important it is to visually inspect that cat. These cats don't typically "Break down"- these are metallic cats, so when they fail, the core material usually collapses in on itself, and winds up at the bottom of the cat in a ball. Ceramic cats break apart, metallic cats do not.
At this point in time, I can't offer to cover the catalyst since we're 6 months out of warranty. We do have 2 options though:
Purchase a brand new down pipe/catalyst. I'd be willing to let it go for my cost price, which is $350.00.
I also have singular cats in stock for $190.00. This solution, however requires the cat that's in the car to be cut out of the down pipe, and the replacement welded in. This obviously represents quite a bit more labor compared to just replacing the down pipe- it could easily eclipse the $160.00 price difference.
Let me know what you'd like to do. The faults you're getting on the primary sensor and the air pump are not at all commonplace, and I suspect there's some other problem with the car. The P0420 code is related to the cat, but we need to make sure the spacer that came with the kit was installed on the correct sensor, and the core material has infact collapsed.
Thanks!"
10-26-2010, 07:50 PM
#36
MBWorld Fanatic!
My reply:
"Hey Cory,
I really appreciate your quick and thorough response. The shop I took it to doesn't seem to have much experience with aftermarket MB, and I'm afraid they are not diagnosing my problems properly because of it. I don't have many other options since there aren't many shops around here, so hopefully I'll be able to solve this with your and their help.
Can you confirm that these are the steps that need to be taken?:
(1) O2 sensor spacer location:
I will have to wait until later this week to go by the exhaust shop that installed this header/cat kit and have them check under the car to make sure it is installed on the sensor downstream from the Cat.
--> If this checks out to be misplaced, then I'll have it moved to the secondary sensor, clear my codes and wait it out. If not OR if the CEL returns, then I'll move on to (2)
(2) Visually inspecting Cat/Downpipe:
Unfortunately, the shop that installed this kit welded the Cat to the downpipe (I just followed their recommendation). The MB shop doesn't have a welder and therefore cannot visually inspect. I will have to take my car the exhaust shop to check this out. It seems like the only way I'll be able to visually check the integrity of the Cat is if The weld is sawed off and welded back together. If you think this is a necessary step before thinking about replacing the Cat, then I'll do it.
--> If the Cat is collapsed/breaking internally, then I'll order a replacement Cat/downpipe or singular Cat. If not, then I'll move on to (3)
(3) Have the shop check the air injection pump / air injection valve
--> possibly replace if necessary? I guess this will have to be the MB shop's call
I can have the exhaust shop check (1) & (2), and if the problem is elsewhere then I'll have to rely on the MB shop.
Does this sequence of events sound right?
I really appreciate the time you took to write me the thorough email. I hope the solution is simple, but I will keep you informed.
Thanks again,"
"Hey Cory,
I really appreciate your quick and thorough response. The shop I took it to doesn't seem to have much experience with aftermarket MB, and I'm afraid they are not diagnosing my problems properly because of it. I don't have many other options since there aren't many shops around here, so hopefully I'll be able to solve this with your and their help.
Can you confirm that these are the steps that need to be taken?:
(1) O2 sensor spacer location:
I will have to wait until later this week to go by the exhaust shop that installed this header/cat kit and have them check under the car to make sure it is installed on the sensor downstream from the Cat.
--> If this checks out to be misplaced, then I'll have it moved to the secondary sensor, clear my codes and wait it out. If not OR if the CEL returns, then I'll move on to (2)
(2) Visually inspecting Cat/Downpipe:
Unfortunately, the shop that installed this kit welded the Cat to the downpipe (I just followed their recommendation). The MB shop doesn't have a welder and therefore cannot visually inspect. I will have to take my car the exhaust shop to check this out. It seems like the only way I'll be able to visually check the integrity of the Cat is if The weld is sawed off and welded back together. If you think this is a necessary step before thinking about replacing the Cat, then I'll do it.
--> If the Cat is collapsed/breaking internally, then I'll order a replacement Cat/downpipe or singular Cat. If not, then I'll move on to (3)
(3) Have the shop check the air injection pump / air injection valve
--> possibly replace if necessary? I guess this will have to be the MB shop's call
I can have the exhaust shop check (1) & (2), and if the problem is elsewhere then I'll have to rely on the MB shop.
Does this sequence of events sound right?
I really appreciate the time you took to write me the thorough email. I hope the solution is simple, but I will keep you informed.
Thanks again,"
10-26-2010, 07:52 PM
#37
MBWorld Fanatic!
I'm going to proceed like I said above and hope for the best. I'll continue updating this thread along the way.
If anyone has had similar problems to this degree, please chime in.
Thanks for all the responses so far.
I'm hoping its a quick fix and nothing too invasive.
If anyone has had similar problems to this degree, please chime in.
Thanks for all the responses so far.
I'm hoping its a quick fix and nothing too invasive.
10-27-2010, 06:15 AM
#38
Super Moderator
mk - I believe all of these problems are being caused by a lazy upstream O2 sensor that has a failing heater element & is cycling too slowly. I would replace the upstream O2 sensor only, clear all codes & monitor. With the fuel trim correct all other codes might well never happen again.
Check the spacer as Cory suggests. Seems a really good guy although I don't understand why OE Cats have to last 80,000 miles by law but aftermarket not. That is another issue. There might well be nothing wrong with the Cat. Just usual Kleemen lack of Cat efficiency vs OE which Cory admits.
Check the spacer as Cory suggests. Seems a really good guy although I don't understand why OE Cats have to last 80,000 miles by law but aftermarket not. That is another issue. There might well be nothing wrong with the Cat. Just usual Kleemen lack of Cat efficiency vs OE which Cory admits.
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; 10-27-2010 at 06:27 AM.
10-27-2010, 07:57 AM
#39
MBWorld Fanatic!
mk - I believe all of these problems are being caused by a lazy upstream O2 sensor that has a failing heater element & is cycling too slowly. I would replace the upstream O2 sensor only, clear all codes & monitor. With the fuel trim correct all other codes might well never happen again.
Check the spacer as Cory suggests. Seems a really good guy although I don't understand why OE Cats have to last 80,000 miles by law but aftermarket not. That is another issue. There might well be nothing wrong with the Cat. Just usual Kleemen lack of Cat efficiency vs OE which Cory admits.
Check the spacer as Cory suggests. Seems a really good guy although I don't understand why OE Cats have to last 80,000 miles by law but aftermarket not. That is another issue. There might well be nothing wrong with the Cat. Just usual Kleemen lack of Cat efficiency vs OE which Cory admits.
my codes were cleared when i left the indie shop and so far no CEL. i'm going to head to the exhaust shop this week to check the sensor spacer.
if it is not placed correctly, i'll fix that first, clear any codes and monitor.
if the spacer is placed correctly, do you recommend for me to replace the upstream O2 sensor before cutting the weld to check the cat? or do you think i should check the internals of the cat first before replacing the sensor? the "rattling" has me concerned, but at the same time checking is going to be an invasive process.
10-27-2010, 08:16 AM
#40
Super Moderator
I would check the spacer & replace the upstream O2 sensor before doing any invasive cutting. O2 sensors do not get any better. It's thrown a code. It's in the time window for replacement unless it's been replaced before. With a new upstream O2 sensor the ECU will get the right data & get your fuel trim spot on. Only with correct fuel trim can you really tell whether the Cat is doing it's job. If you are running rich due to a bad O2 sensor you will reach a point that the Cat can't clean the exhaust & will throw a 420.
EDIT - we know that the Kleeman Cats are not as efficient as OE so you will throw a 420 even easier with a bad O2 sensor than with the OE Cat
Good luck!
EDIT - we know that the Kleeman Cats are not as efficient as OE so you will throw a 420 even easier with a bad O2 sensor than with the OE Cat
Good luck!
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; 10-27-2010 at 08:19 AM.
10-27-2010, 09:22 AM
#41
MBWorld Fanatic!
I would check the spacer & replace the upstream O2 sensor before doing any invasive cutting. O2 sensors do not get any better. It's thrown a code. It's in the time window for replacement unless it's been replaced before. With a new upstream O2 sensor the ECU will get the right data & get your fuel trim spot on. Only with correct fuel trim can you really tell whether the Cat is doing it's job. If you are running rich due to a bad O2 sensor you will reach a point that the Cat can't clean the exhaust & will throw a 420.
EDIT - we know that the Kleeman Cats are not as efficient as OE so you will throw a 420 even easier with a bad O2 sensor than with the OE Cat
Good luck!
EDIT - we know that the Kleeman Cats are not as efficient as OE so you will throw a 420 even easier with a bad O2 sensor than with the OE Cat
Good luck!
with different recommendations from the indie shop and kleemann, its so valuable to get some objective guidance...
i'll keep you posted (thanks)
11-04-2010, 05:53 PM
#44
MBWorld Fanatic!
hey Glyn,
do you have the PN for this O2 sensor?
does anyone recommend a place to order where I can return if I don't need it?
i'm ordering a Cat from kleemann and also want to have this sensor ordered when i get my car jacked up to inspect everything. I'm trying to minimize my trips to the shop, so I'm going to have these parts ready to go. At the same time, I want to make sure I can return them if I don't need them.
Edit:
I saw this one and was wondering if its the correct O2 sensor. There are two listed, is the one that I need the "front" sensor?
http://www.autohausaz.com/search/pro...xygen%20Sensor
Thanks!
do you have the PN for this O2 sensor?
does anyone recommend a place to order where I can return if I don't need it?
i'm ordering a Cat from kleemann and also want to have this sensor ordered when i get my car jacked up to inspect everything. I'm trying to minimize my trips to the shop, so I'm going to have these parts ready to go. At the same time, I want to make sure I can return them if I don't need them.
Edit:
I saw this one and was wondering if its the correct O2 sensor. There are two listed, is the one that I need the "front" sensor?
http://www.autohausaz.com/search/pro...xygen%20Sensor
Thanks!
Last edited by Midnight Koop; 11-04-2010 at 06:04 PM.
11-05-2010, 07:54 AM
#47
MBWorld Fanatic!
02-05-2011, 12:33 PM
#50
MBWorld Fanatic!
i had the downstream 02 sensor replace recently, so it looked fine. However, the upstream one was all black and since it was throwing codes... hopefully the replacement will fix it.
i actually haven't put it in yet because i've been driving the ML for the winter... but i'll post once its replace and the CEL is cleared.
i also ended up returning the new cat to kleemann for a full refund because when muffler shop inspected the original kleemann cat, they said it looks fine. hopefully things will sort once i get around to installing the 02 sensor.
also... glyn's PN is the correct one: RMeuropean show it as Part Number: 003-542-73-1
Last edited by Midnight Koop; 02-05-2011 at 12:38 PM.
