C36

[96AMG]

Are all MB AMG's build the same from day one? Is/was c36 especial/different compared to others AMG? (production/options etc) Any other AMG got an over sized/revoked engine? heard thru the grapewine c280 was delivered complete to AMG to be converted ( I know sound dumb) any comment welcome

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[BenzMaster19]

Well the 3.6 motor found on the C36 is in a way different then other AMG engines because it doesn't have just a regular Benz engine with modified cams etc.. its actually "internally re-designed", and the 3.6 is AMG's own displacment/design.
Benz delivered a full C280 to the AMG plant, and told AMG to do what you pleasee, and the parts AMG didn't use went back to Benz like Bumpers, suspension parts, tranny, wheels, Differential etc... and Benz put those parts back into other C280's coming off the assembly lines. Only a hand full of C280s had the luxury of becoming C36 AMG's.

[steve s]

Originally Posted by 96AMG

Are all MB AMG's build the same from day one?

no, but what years do u want to compare?

Originally Posted by 96AMG

Is/was c36 especial/different compared to others AMG? (production/options etc)

different? yes, cuz they rushed it as well as mb purchasing amg during the developement of the car, which lead to the diesel chatter u hear from the engine.

[steve s]

even between the 3 years the c36 was built, there were huge variations.

here are some numbers in the u.s.
1995, 444 sold, list msrp $49,800, 268 hp 4-sp
1996, 338 sold, list msrp $51,000, 268 hp 4-sp
1997, 236 sold, list msrp $51,925, 276 hp 5-sp

some had sl600 front brakes (4-piston), some had e420 front brakes (single piston ate sliding crap)

[2PHAST]

Originally Posted by steve s

no, but what years do u want to compare?



different? yes, cuz they rushed it as well as mb purchasing amg during the developement of the car, which lead to the diesel chatter u hear from the engine.

Not true, the turned version of the M104 from AMG was available as far back as 1992 in 3.4l form and in the E36 in 3.6l form. The AMG tuned M104 was around long before the C36.

Nothing on the motor was "rushed" and it is well built but has the same faults of all M104 motors of the 94-97 era, wire harnesses and bad head gaskets.

[2PHAST]

Originally Posted by BenzMaster19

Well the 3.6 motor found on the C36 is in a way different then other AMG engines because it doesn't have just a regular Benz engine with modified cams etc.. its actually "internally re-designed", and the 3.6 is AMG's own displacment/design.
Benz delivered a full C280 to the AMG plant, and told AMG to do what you pleasee, and the parts AMG didn't use went back to Benz like Bumpers, suspension parts, tranny, wheels, Differential etc... and Benz put those parts back into other C280's coming off the assembly lines. Only a hand full of C280s had the luxury of becoming C36 AMG's.

Partially true, the vehicle was shipped to AMG minus things like the bumpers, rockers etc. Exact specifics are not known, but at one time, there were photos of W202 chassis cars being delivered to AMG floating around, some people have said the chassis's were minus motor/trans as well.

[2PHAST]

Originally Posted by 96AMG

Are all MB AMG's build the same from day one?

Is/was c36 especial/different compared to others AMG? (production/options etc)

Any other AMG got an over sized/revoked engine?

heard thru the grapewine c280 was delivered complete to AMG to be converted ( I know sound dumb)

any comment welcome

Kind of depends upon which other AMG vehicles you want to compare this car to. All early AMG vehicles were more or less built ala cart and it wasn't till 1992 that AMG partnered with Mercedes and offered complete vehicles through the european dealerships, starting with the 3.2l 190e and E36. You could still order ala cart and all the options ordered were coded into the VIN. So it wasn't uncommon to see a fully built AMG W124 with all options and a bone stock motor, or vice versa, a bone stock car with a 3.4l motor for example.

The C36 was the first AMG built vehicle to be sold in the USA through the Mercedes dealerships (so were not counting any of the AMG cars built by Westmont or BHMA).

I believe the C43 was one of the few AMG built cars that used a stock motor (from the E430) without any build up.

[BenzMaster19]

Originally Posted by steve s

even between the 3 years the c36 was built, there were huge variations.

here are some numbers in the u.s.
1995, 444 sold, list msrp $49,800, 268 hp 4-sp
1996, 338 sold, list msrp $51,000, 268 hp 4-sp
1997, 236 sold, list msrp $51,925, 276 hp 5-sp

some had sl600 front brakes (4-piston), some had e420 front brakes (single piston ate sliding crap)

You are wrong on the "Brakes" part of your post,,,
The '95's had their own Custom AMG brakes/calipers, and the '96 and '97's FRONT brakes were from the SL600, and the REAR brakes were from the E420.

[96AMG]

interesting comments, many thanks

regardless if they (C36) were delivered to AMG complete or with missing bumpers etc ( neither one appear to have facts as far WWW)

What was the intention of making a car, deliver it, then dissasembled it to beef up engine, tranny, brakes, etc (liabilities?)

What other models were "rebuild" that way?


and as far of delivering C36 chassis wil make for another trip back to MB... way out my understanding of doing business

[MarcusF]

Originally Posted by 2PHAST

. . . . . .I believe the C43 was one of the few AMG built cars that used a stock motor (from the E430) without any build up.

The C43 has some headwork that differs from the other M113s. The heads on a C43 are the exact same part number as a regular 4.3, but the roof of the exhaust ports on a C43 have been massaged (sides and floor appear to be the same as a regular 4.3, as do the intake ports). The valves are standard issue M112/M113, but the C43 uses unique cams (parts numbered 1130504101 left. 1130504001 right) and unique valve springs (part number 1130530120).

[steve s]

Originally Posted by BenzMaster19

You are wrong on the "Brakes" part of your post,,,
The '95's had their own Custom AMG brakes/calipers, and the '96 and '97's FRONT brakes were from the SL600, and the REAR brakes were from the E420.

ah. but were the sl600 single sliding ate calipers? cuz that's what i have in the front, single sliding crap. and i've seen the the 4-piston fixed calipers on 95 models. clearly not what i have

[steve s]

Originally Posted by 2PHAST

Not true, the turned version of the M104 from AMG was available as far back as 1992 in 3.4l form and in the E36 in 3.6l form. The AMG tuned M104 was around long before the C36.

Nothing on the motor was "rushed" and it is well built but has the same faults of all M104 motors of the 94-97 era, wire harnesses and bad head gaskets.

while i am aware that the e36 was available earlier.. perhaps u can explain the diesel chatter from the engine?

best explanation came from someone on this board..

see post #13

Originally Posted by CynCarvin32

Ok... not sure what to tell you here but go read my 8 page long net star print out on my C36. The car spent 6 years trying to get the tapping noise solved but after AMG and MB did everything under the sun to fix it the truth came out. They realized it was just a design flaw inherent in the car. Not to be aggressive or rude here but I highly doubt there is any owner here who has gone through what I did to fix this sound. My car has been studied by many engineers and this is what we learned. And could I have been insane making people work for so long to clear an issue? Sure but that is my nature. A motor should not clatter like a diesel when at idle in my opinion. I had an 1990 500SL that did the same thing and it got a new lump as well! Ever listen to a 1992 500E? They have piston slap as well (same as the 1990 500SL).

Go talk to AMG about the motor. The C36 was originally designed as a C34 (M103 with a twin cam head and the 7k redline -- 3.4L motor). Late in design they switched to the C36 motor and there were some changes made to the car at that point and this is where the issue resides. The 3.4L motor had pistons which were made by kolbenschmidt and these pistons are among the highest quality on the market today. At the same time that the designs were changed, AMG was officially acquired my MB and MB began taking over some of the control in vehicle design. Some say that the pistons in the C36 are cheaper quality than that of the C34 for they are made by Mahle. Granted the motor was now called the M104 with a different fuel management system and a revised top end, but some feel that the change in piston manufacturers could be the cause. AMG seemingly rushed the C36 into production in a race with such tuners as Carlsson and Brabus (both making C34's and C36's before the AMG C36 came to market). Having not done enough testing on the C36, some things were maybe over looked. Almost all C36’s are very susceptible to power loss on days with high ambient temps and this too is a known issue for many C36’s which was not “fixable” either.

So with all this going on, the car had an inherent design characteristic that made the motor "tick" at idle when the OIL WAS WARM. It was quiet at start up but this particular noise was FAR worse when the oil was warm and when the motor fell to idle at a stoplight. If the car idled next to a tall curb or a wall with warm oil it sounded completely terrible. Feel free to ask any board members who knew me when I had the C36... the motor was extremely loud. I test drove 4 other C36's with similar miles to compare motors and they all make the same sound. In fact the man who purchased my C36 had a silver C36 as well and BOTH his cars make this ticking sound.

Go listen to a RENNtech built 3.6L M104 motor and you will quickly see a vast difference. That motor purrs like a happy kitty cat with NO cam noise, no bottom end tap or ticking sound, and no loud lifters. Hmmm... That motor uses kolbenschmidt pistons and there is no issue with excess tolerances. Have we the source of the issue?

My C36 would idle perfectly quiet in two specific situations. 1) when the motor was cold just after start up 2) when it was extremely warm (when the expanded metal filled in the excess tolerances). Take the car out and run it up a canyon road at 100% for an hour and the motor purred like the RENNtech motor. When the motor was cold, the thick oil suppressed the ticking until the viscosity decreased.

There is also a known problem where some M104 motors have oiling issues and failed lifters and this can cause a terrible clatter upon start up. But this issue goes away in about 10 seconds after the car’s oil pump catches up with the top end. My car had this issue but luckily new lifters and a new oil pump solved it.

[96AMG]

Appear that CynCarvin32 is a very passionate c36 enthusiast and or he got an extra noisy engine.
My C36 for idiots Guide tells me that if engine noise DO NOT increase with AGE or RPM's AND if after 14 years the used car market continues to offer fine examples (150.000 miles) with UNOPENED engines in good to perfect condition (off course with diesel sound at idle like the day they came off the show room) they are fine and enjoyable..especially with A/C ON

in his post is a interesting paragraph that describe the nature of the beast


(quote)Take the car out and run it up a canyon road at 100% for an hour and the motor purred like the RENNtech

To a non purist like me the above means overbuild to last..

[BenzMaster19]

Originally Posted by steve s

ah. but were the sl600 single sliding ate calipers? cuz that's what i have in the front, single sliding crap. and i've seen the the 4-piston fixed calipers on 95 models. clearly not what i have

I have a '96 and I have the SL600 brakes, and they are the 4 piston calipers.

[steve s]

bummer.. i've asked around, and it seems like i'm the only one who got shafted with single piston ate calipers. which mb usa/amg confirmed with me a few weeks ago about my c36, but without an explanation.

i'm not saying it's not built to last (altho the a/c system is another story), i'm just saying a car that cost us 50k+ in 1996 dollars should not have diesel chatter..

[BenzMaster19]

Originally Posted by steve s

i'm not saying it's not built to last (altho the a/c system is another story), i'm just saying a car that cost us 50k+ in 1996 dollars should not have diesel chatter..

For the last time,, the deisel "chatter" is not a defect! its a sprocet they used to keep the Exhaust valve opened for longer so it overlaps with the intake valve longer hence more power!! Do you think AMG would release an engine with such a noise like that if they knew it was bad?? "oh look theirs this weird deisel noise,, ahh who cares...." CUMON. Take a listen at the new AMG engines, they aint smooth either! if you want smooth go buy a Benz engine, an AMG engine is built for Power. Smooth is in my C280 engine, Power is in my AMG engine.

[Jons95c36amg]

Not true about the AMG engine. My Clk55 engine idles smooth.

[BenzMaster19]

Originally Posted by Jons95c36amg

Not true about the AMG engine. My Clk55 engine idles smooth.

Thats a Totaly different design. Did you hear the new 6.3's? I heard so many already and they are all the same, very powerful but not exactly smoooth sounding.. Every Mechanic I been too said the exact same thing...

[steve s]

Originally Posted by BenzMaster19

For the last time,, the deisel "chatter" is not a defect!

fine...

but could it not be that there wasn't enough attention paid (perhaps because of the ownership changeover) when

a, when we bought the car, the paint was swirly on the hood, and needed repainting.

b, when we bought the car, instead of c36 amg floor mats (which we do have now), we got e-class mats that were clearly oversized and did not fit.

c, i clearly don't have the sl600 4-pot brakes up front when everyone else i ask does. and if u ask dealer for parts for generic 96 c36, it supposed to be those sl600 brakes, but if i give them vin, it's not.

d, engine is borderline overheating on really hot days, even with those jet turbine sounding fans going off like crazy...

i could go on about some of the other items that needed fixing on our c36...

[96AMG]

Originally Posted by steve s

fine...

but could it not be that there wasn't enough attention paid (perhaps because of the ownership changeover) when

a, when we bought the car, the paint was swirly on the hood, and needed repainting.

b, when we bought the car, instead of c36 amg floor mats (which we do have now), we got e-class mats that were clearly oversized and did not fit.

c, i clearly don't have the sl600 4-pot brakes up front when everyone else i ask does. and if u ask dealer for parts for generic 96 c36, it supposed to be those sl600 brakes, but if i give them vin, it's not.

d, engine is borderline overheating on really hot days, even with those jet turbine sounding fans going off like crazy...

i could go on about some of the other items that needed fixing on our c36...

Assuming you got the car brand new (otherwise none of your a,b,c,d apply):

only C is a mystery

a and b is/was baked by MB not AMG, now that I come to think everything is honored by MB.. and pretty banal for what we trying to unravel..

d is irritating, sorry to hear that, personally would drive me nuts, I live in very hot weather and gauge show 85 all day long.

And for your comment on chatter: "but could it not be that there wasn't enough attention paid"

I have found comfort in the guys who spend time and money on the subject:

(quote)Take the car out and run it up a canyon road at 100% for an hour and the motor purred like the RENNtech

after all we rely on each other when it come to especial low production cars with race engines/characteristics

[steve s]

yes, the car was purchased brand new in june of 1996.. it just passed 30k a few weeks ago. (and omg, can u believe what they charge for that 30k service at an mb dealer?)

well i'm happy to learn there is more to the chatter (sprocets used to overlap ex/intake valves) from this thread. discussions are always helpful right?

the heat gets to this car easily, when temps hit 90F+, and the car isn't moving fast, temp gauge creeps up to the 100C mark

[BenzMaster19]

Originally Posted by steve s

yes, the car was purchased brand new in june of 1996.. it just passed 30k a few weeks ago. (and omg, can u believe what they charge for that 30k service at an mb dealer?)

well i'm happy to learn there is more to the chatter (sprocets used to overlap ex/intake valves) from this thread. discussions are always helpful right?

the heat gets to this car easily, when temps hit 90F+, and the car isn't moving fast, temp gauge creeps up to the 100C mark

Its normal for the Temp gauge to creep up to the 100C mark, especially on the AMG's the Heat is created very quicky because of the bigger displacement/power. As long as it doesn't go over that mark you are perfectly fine! These engines are made to run between 87C and 100C. Also make sure you flush your coolant with Mercedes-Benz Coolant (orange) ONLY, and change the Thermostat out aswell, this should be done every 2-3 years regardless of mileage.

But Man, I really don't know why your C36 came with those thngs like that?? its really strange,, Maybe the dealer screwed around with the car before you bought it??

[steve s]

does ur c36 also look like it's on stilts ala suv look? mine came with super thick spring pads .

[BenzMaster19]

Originally Posted by steve s

does ur c36 also look like it's on stilts ala suv look? mine came with super thick spring pads .

Well, when I park my C36 next to my C280, the C36 is actually higher! so yea, they come like that lol, it's higher but the ride is just perfect IMO, racing tuned with comfort aswell.

[steve s]

hahaha, funny, my friend's "C28 amg" with 17" monoblocs on stock suspension sat lower too when put side by side.