evosport and Powerchip Stage 1 C63 ECU Tune and Development

[gravedgr]

Originally Posted by gravedgr Brad, Correct me if I'm wrong, but since Simon already announced a v2 due soon it sounds like every customer would be well advised to not buy now and wait for v2 since there is a charge to re-flash as you state. Is this correct? What about re-flashes if the dealer overwrites the ECU change with one of their own (warranty work, for instance). As I'm sure you know, many of us '09 owners have already had an ECU/ME replacement so its not a far cry to think it could happen to tuned customers. This is what I'm referring to: Originally Posted by -michael- Sounds really great!! What about the price range for the stage 2 ECU tune? Originally Posted by Simon @ evosport The price will be the same. It is just that it will be stage 2 in the development process. There may be a slight bump in price for the "race/header" software, but not significant. If the price is the same, there doesn't seem to be any sense in not waiting for the "final" tune.

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[bigbodybeeenz]

Originally Posted by richtor

nice numbers! i do have some questions, please forgive me if you have answered them here or on a different thread already. if you have just point me towards the answers.

were these pulls done in 4th or 5th gear? i am assuming that both the stock and tuned were pulled in the same gear.

why did the stock pull stop at 5.65k rpms? that seems odd when the tuned pulls did not reach peak hp until a thousands rpms later. did your tune offset peak hp by 1000 rpms?

how does the computer in the throttle effect the computer(ecu) for the motor? will the throttle automatically adjust to the new tune? and if it does not will you be offering a tune for the throttle to match what you have done with the ecu?

how does this compare with your tune on the e63? and what will be different in your stage 2 tune for the c class?

thanks michael

Did you even look at the graph and read the post? Most of your questions are already answered in the 1st post.

[-michael-]

"As it pertains specifically to VRP, we have had a long time relationship with Victor, the founder. In fact, long before he started his company, he had our complete offering on his E55 and has posted on this board his positive experiences with those goods. When he started his company, we supported another enthusiast jumping in the fray and have purchased a few items from them for our customers on request, but they have never been sold as evosport product.

I hope that adds some clarity." Simon @ evosport

Simon, I'm sorry for such a stupid, newbie question and thank you for making this very clear.
Are you planning on offering a package for c63 - ex. ecu, headers and exhaust, brakes, pulley, airbox (maybe I missed smth) all together with a little discount.
This is why I'm asking - If I was to purchase your ECU tune I would want you guys to do the whole car for me. Because I think it is better to have the car in one hands. And you will know what works better with the ECU tune you offer. Thank you in advance and sorry for the first question.

[MB_Forever]

I see the post tune dynos were made in 4th and in 5th, but how about the stock dyno pull....... was that in 4th or 5th?

[richtor]

Originally Posted by bigbodybeeenz

Did you even look at the graph and read the post? Most of your questions are already answered in the 1st post.

part of my first question was answered. what gears were the stock pulls made in? how does rpm pick fail on every stock run(i am assuming you hit the dyno more than once for the baseline numbers) and not fail on tuned runs? did you adjust rpm pickup from the computer with your tune?

and to answer your question, i was basically looking at just the numbers on the graph late last night. i was impressed even though i was falling asleep.

[MB_Forever]

Was the problem with the rough idle ever solved? Some members were experiencing problems with idle and half throttle using the initial Powerchip tune, does anybody know if they ever addressed that

[clktoc63]

Originally Posted by MHP

I agree on the price for ECU only, buy it and put it to the test.

I too like the prospects of a shootout!

Here's an even better approach:

Given that the nature and cost of the tune is really in the intellectual property as opposed to hardware, why not join forces with Evosport/Powertech and give us consumers the best of both worlds?

Andy, I think a lot of us out here see your great successes with the car and highly appreciate your diligence in your posts. I've watched the videos a dozen times a piece and read every one of your posts. That said, I also think many of us really find value in a known commodity and reputable name like Evosport/Powerchip.

Why not establish a profit share by offering a MHP/Evosport/Powerchip tune by selling them the best of your R&D/intellectual property? (Also remembering the TCU part). Then we consumers get the best of three worlds; better tune then MHP alone, better tune then Evosport alone, and piece of mind from brand recognition.

Obvious synergies in that as of now, you'll both stand to get 50% of the market (assuming we're shying away from the other more $$ tuners) but up to 100% for an even more superior product. Heck, I might even be willing to spend a few hundred more for this mother of all tunes.

[MHP]

Originally Posted by clktoc63

I too like the prospects of a shootout!

Here's an even better approach:

Given that the nature and cost of the tune is really in the intellectual property as opposed to hardware, why not join forces with Evosport/Powertech and give us consumers the best of both worlds?

Andy, I think a lot of us out here see your great successes with the car and highly appreciate your diligence in your posts. I've watched the videos a dozen times a piece and read every one of your posts. That said, I also think many of us really find value in a known commodity and reputable name like Evosport/Powerchip.

Why not establish a profit share by offering a MHP/Evosport/Powerchip tune by selling them the best of your R&D/intellectual property? (Also remembering the TCU part). Then we consumers get the best of three worlds; better tune then MHP alone, better tune then Evosport alone, and piece of mind from brand recognition.

Obvious synergies in that as of now, you'll both stand to get 50% of the market (assuming we're shying away from the other more $$ tuners) but up to 100% for an even more superior product. Heck, I might even be willing to spend a few hundred more for this mother of all tunes.

That's the thing and no disrespect to evo/PC, but that's why we're willing to go head to head with anyone to prove that no part of our tuning is inferior. Same day, same track, same dyno. Let's do it.

Logistically speaking this can be setup virtually overnight. Each tuner kicks out a free or highly discounted tune to an objective tester from this board, they all meet at MIR and get it done.

Works for me.

[stefario]

Ill take the free tune from each - dyno and review it from my base in Vancouver?

[gravedgr]

Granted it has only been a few days, but the answers seem to have dried up. Hopefully someone form evosport will reply this weekend?

[MHP]

Originally Posted by stefario

Ill take the free tune from each - dyno and review it from my base in Vancouver?

I've already picked my tester, if you can make MIR hit up a competitor and see what they say. They key to making this a 100% credible test will be to track and dyno test in front of the entire MIR crowd so no deception can take place.

[Mathmik]

Originally Posted by MHP

I've already picked my tester, if you can make MIR hit up a competitor and see what they say. They key to making this a 100% credible test will be to track and dyno test in front of the entire MIR crowd so no deception can take place.

I'm in Maryland.... But I have a CLS63..... Give me the tune I'll see whats up

[richtor]

what gear was the stock run made in?
why did it read higher rpms only after the tune?
what about throttle tunes? can you do them? would you recommend them?
and lastly do you have a times down the 1320 with this tune?

[clktoc63]

Originally Posted by MHP

That's the thing and no disrespect to evo/PC, but that's why we're willing to go head to head with anyone to prove that no part of our tuning is inferior. Same day, same track, same dyno. Let's do it.

Logistically speaking this can be setup virtually overnight. Each tuner kicks out a free or highly discounted tune to an objective tester from this board, they all meet at MIR and get it done.

Works for me.

Nice Andy, I really like the confidence. I'm not sure where the consumer's true threshold is, but part of the point was "piece of mind" from a known entity, so even if you were to make 10 more HP and 15 more ft/lbs of torque folks might still choose to sacrifice the extra gain for that piece of mind. Just something to think about.

This would especially be true if that 10 more HP came from a tune that Evo/Powerchip would claim is unnecessarily aggressive on a 70k car.

Of course, then we'll have someone challenge if the dyno methods were the same, that they were done on different days, the car was more broken-in with second tune, it was cooler that morning, the air was more dense blah blah blah. The consumer also will have your added value of the TCU tuning to consider which won't show up on a dyno but in a quarter mile...then we'd have all those variables to deal with...

Even with the shootout/free tune results for a single tester...which is GREAT, I would bet folks still purchase from both sources cutting both your share and Evo/PC's share in half.

[clktoc63]

Originally Posted by MHP

I've already picked my tester, if you can make MIR hit up a competitor and see what they say. They key to making this a 100% credible test will be to track and dyno test in front of the entire MIR crowd so no deception can take place.

Can this be a 100% credible test if the vendor being tested picks their tester?

Shouldn't the obvious test be to run both tunes on a single, non-biased volunteer's car?

[MHP]

Originally Posted by clktoc63

Can this be a 100% credible test if the vendor being tested picks their tester?

Shouldn't the obvious test be to run both tunes on a single, non-biased volunteer's car?

As long as both cars had identical mods, similar miles, and tires I see nothing wrong with it.

Out of respect for Evosport I'm going to refrain from further posts in this thread.

[gravedgr]

bump for update.

[dremorg]

Hey all. I just looked at the Powerchip website & it said that the ECU flash for the C63AMG only gave up to 478hp & 469tq.

[Jim Brady]

Originally Posted by MHP

That's the thing and no disrespect to evo/PC, but that's why we're willing to go head to head with anyone to prove that no part of our tuning is inferior. Same day, same track, same dyno. Let's do it.

Logistically speaking this can be setup virtually overnight. Each tuner kicks out a free or highly discounted tune to an objective tester from this board, they all meet at MIR and get it done.

Works for me.

MHP,
Just some observations as most gearheads here are somewhat unaware as to the sophistication of Siemans ECU & TCU used in the 63's. The cost to R&D this unit isn't like the days of old in fact, it clearly requies a lot of time which translates to a higher product cost. There no free lunch. I do applaud your transmission revision with rev matching. AMG embarked on this as a potential upgrade for the CLK63 BS and decided it was too costly. My question is if they couldn't economiclly provide the upgrade when they have the codes, how are you able to do it?

Secondly, I do know Evosport/PC uncovered some issues with the ecu that only manifested itself by track testing and not on the dyno. So guys wanting to track their car should inquire if this tuning will affect the drivability when
putting the car through its paces on a circuit not just the street. Have you track tested your ecu?

Finally, unless you have "cracked the codes" and so far no one has to my knowledge, the limiting factor in the 63's is the amount of throttle which is somewhere around 86%. Most tuners are then limiting top speed, ignition, fuel and throttle response. Have you had a break though on increasing the throttle?
Just my $.02

Jimmy

[MHP]

Originally Posted by Jim Brady

MHP,
Just some observations as most gearheads here are somewhat unaware as to the sophistication of Siemans ECU & TCU used in the 63's. The cost to R&D this unit isn't like the days of old in fact, it clearly requies a lot of time which translates to a higher product cost. There no free lunch. I do applaud your transmission revision with rev matching. AMG embarked on this as a potential upgrade for the CLK63 BS and decided it was too costly. My question is if they couldn't economiclly provide the upgrade when they have the codes, how are you able to do it?

Secondly, I do know Evosport/PC uncovered some issues with the ecu that only manifested itself by track testing and not on the dyno. So guys wanting to track their car should inquire if this tuning will affect the drivability when
putting the car through its paces on a circuit not just the street. Have you track tested your ecu?

Finally, unless you have "cracked the codes" and so far no one has to my knowledge, the limiting factor in the 63's is the amount of throttle which is somewhere around 86%. Most tuners are then limiting top speed, ignition, fuel and throttle response. Have you had a break though on increasing the throttle?
Just my $.02

Jimmy

Jim,
I'm not sure if that was directed at me or evo. If it was me, would you mind starting another thread about it or posting the question in one of my existing ones? Sorry but I don't want to keep butting into evo's thread.

If it was directed at evo, please ignore the above.

Thanks
Andy

[paulGT3]

It think they were directed at you Andy.

Jim Is the most knowledgeable road racer I know. He may be able to help you out with his questions. He is a very accomplished race driver whom has handled some of the most powerful on track (real road courses not drag strips) that I have ever seen. His questions are well founded.

[MHP]

Originally Posted by paulGT3

It think they were directed at you Andy.

Jim Is the most knowledgeable road racer I know. He may be able to help you out with his questions. He is a very accomplished race driver whom has handled some of the most powerful on track (real road courses not drag strips) that I have ever seen. His questions are well founded.

I'll be glad to answer them in another thread as I've been asked politely not to keep posting in this one.

[c32used]

[otoupalik]

Originally Posted by gravedgr

Granted it has only been a few days, but the answers seem to have dried up. Hopefully someone form evosport will reply this weekend?

Sorry gang. We went racing last weekend with our BMW Car Club - Club Racing team (won both classes we entered, thank you), then I came home very sick and have been out since last Thursday with the two things (still am at home actually - just finally feeling better to get on the PC). Of course this has left Simon doing my job and his at the office, so sorry for a lack of update.

I will answer the rest in order (or try at least):

Originally Posted by richtor

nice numbers! i do have some questions, please forgive me if you have answered them here or on a different thread already. if you have just point me towards the answers.

were these pulls done in 4th or 5th gear? i am assuming that both the stock and tuned were pulled in the same gear.

why did the stock pull stop at 5.65k rpms? that seems odd when the tuned pulls did not reach peak hp until a thousands rpms later. did your tune offset peak hp by 1000 rpms?

how does the computer in the throttle effect the computer(ecu) for the motor? will the throttle automatically adjust to the new tune? and if it does not will you be offering a tune for the throttle to match what you have done with the ecu?

how does this compare with your tune on the e63? and what will be different in your stage 2 tune for the c class?

Most of your answers are on the charts, but I will summarize:

• gears: before in 4th, after in 4th and fifth
• the RPM pickup failed on the baseline run (see the chart), so the baseline HP would be a little higher in reality as it continues, but torque has already maxed out
• throttle: the throttle mapping is in the ECU, and we have control over it now, that is why we are seeing such huge gains
• other 63's will get the same end numbers
• the only remaining development on software alone is the typical powerchip/evosport desire to always get more. We are still re-tuning e46 M3 software (6 years later), we never give up for the last bits. EVO2 will be in conjunction with additional mods. As with any Powerchip software, you can get an update for just the reflash fee!

Originally Posted by gravedgr

Correct me if I'm wrong, but since Simon already announced a v2 due soon it sounds like every customer would be well advised to not buy now and wait for v2 since there is a charge to re-flash as you state. Is this correct?

What about re-flashes if the dealer overwrites the ECU change with one of their own (warranty work, for instance). As I'm sure you know, many of us '09 owners have already had an ECU/ME replacement so its not a far cry to think it could happen to tuned customers.

It is only correct if you are going to wait for other mods. However, with that type of gain, I would jump now on software alone, then upgrade to the Evo2 as you add other mods. We are fitting some on our C63 development car this week in fact! More to be announced very soon!

If the ECU is over-written, then you will need to send it to Powerchip and have it re-flashed for a minimal fee. Best advise, but on the work order in BIG letters "DO NOT WRITE TO ECU" - but if it does have to happen, rest assured that you can get your tune back for a small fee (just to cover their labor).

Originally Posted by -michael-

Are you planning on offering a package for c63 - ex. ecu, headers and exhaust, brakes, pulley, airbox (maybe I missed smth) all together with a little discount.
This is why I'm asking - If I was to purchase your ECU tune I would want you guys to do the whole car for me. Because I think it is better to have the car in one hands. And you will know what works better with the ECU tune you offer. Thank you in advance and sorry for the first question.

Yes, look again at that first post and look at our CLK63 Black Series offerings. We have a full line of goods and like with the BS, we will be able to offer the most power of anyone - PERIOD!

Also, remember, you can always do the ECU now and then when we do the whole car (thanks for the support! ) we will just upgrade the ECU to match the mods!

Originally Posted by MB_Forever

I see the post tune dynos were made in 4th and in 5th, but how about the stock dyno pull....... was that in 4th or 5th?

Baseline was in 4th, so you can see the gains in the baseline to the 4th gear final pull.

Originally Posted by MB_Forever

Was the problem with the rough idle ever solved? Some members were experiencing problems with idle and half throttle using the initial Powerchip tune, does anybody know if they ever addressed that

Well to be fair, I am not sure there were ever any problems. We have never seen them first hand, and the person who posted that seemed to be at odds with PC - so it is hard to tell what is the truth or internet talk.

What I can tell you is that every 63 tune we have done has been no problems with idle and half-throttle, and we had the first 63 tune done by them, so I am talking about a history from the start.

Originally Posted by clktoc63

Why not establish a profit share by offering a MHP/Evosport/Powerchip tune by selling them the best of your R&D/intellectual property? (Also remembering the TCU part). Then we consumers get the best of three worlds; better tune then MHP alone, better tune then Evosport alone, and piece of mind from brand recognition.

Obvious synergies in that as of now, you'll both stand to get 50% of the market (assuming we're shying away from the other more $$ tuners) but up to 100% for an even more superior product. Heck, I might even be willing to spend a few hundred more for this mother of all tunes.

Powerchip and evosport independently always strive for the best. I can tell you that your idea is not without merit. There is always something gained by working toward a common goal. We will have to see what happens.

As for now, I think it is great to have someone like MHP also pushing for the best! It gives customers a better overall product!

Originally Posted by MHP

That's the thing and no disrespect to evo/PC, but that's why we're willing to go head to head with anyone to prove that no part of our tuning is inferior. Same day, same track, same dyno. Let's do it.

Add SAME CAR, and I think we would be in.

The way we have always done shootouts is same day, same dyno (or track) and same car. That eliminates all variables. You drive the car the same manner and path to ensure adaptations, then you run it with both tunes.

You really must use the same car, as you could have a significant difference from one car to the next, so you may be comparing apples to oranges.

We did a great and highly publicized shootout like this with the AFE vs. K&N intake on the e46 M3.

Originally Posted by richtor

and lastly do you have a times down the 1320 with this tune?

Not yet, but that will happen I am sure sometime. We are busy developing product and adapting our Black Series line to the other 63's for now.

Originally Posted by clktoc63

Shouldn't the obvious test be to run both tunes on a single, non-biased volunteer's car?

Yes it should.

Originally Posted by dremorg

Hey all. I just looked at the Powerchip website & it said that the ECU flash for the C63AMG only gave up to 478hp & 469tq.

That is old information, the new information is posted in this thread. If you are interested in purchasing, let me know and we will handle it for you, no problem!

Originally Posted by Jim Brady

Secondly, I do know Evosport/PC uncovered some issues with the ecu that only manifested itself by track testing and not on the dyno. So guys wanting to track their car should inquire if this tuning will affect the drivability when
putting the car through its paces on a circuit not just the street. Have you track tested your ecu?

Finally, unless you have "cracked the codes" and so far no one has to my knowledge, the limiting factor in the 63's is the amount of throttle which is somewhere around 86%. Most tuners are then limiting top speed, ignition, fuel and throttle response. Have you had a break though on increasing the throttle?
Just my $.02

Jimmy

Jim, we have the codes to the throttle and as you can see with the C63, we are implementing them!

And yes, he is right. We test our stuff on the race track, not drag strip typically. The race track takes much more out of a car and will give you much more data to interpret to make a better product. The strip just gives you full throttle numbers much like a dyno. A road course will give you part throttle, decel, full throttle, traction control, etc...

Originally Posted by c32used

Thanks!

Please feel free to ask more questions. I am still sick as I stated when I started, so I am not sure I will reply today.

Thanks
Brad

[(ZO)]

Thanks Brad

Thanks for all the info, I talk to Wayne from Powerchip in Melbourne (I live in Melbourne Australia) today, and I am planning to do mine in a few weeks.

I am going to do a before and after dyno and I am going to post it up.