Thoughts: C63 vs CTS-V

[ericpd]

Ok folks. I'm a current 2002 C32 owner. Bought it back Xmas 03 with only 1700 on the OD. Has served me well excepting the usual stuff,... stuff like a new radiator, several seat controllers, a couple front bushing replacements, two intercooler pump replacements, a SC pulley replacement, and a transmission rebuild (associated with the radiator some kinda way,... not sure why). It's still fast. And with the pully mod added last summer, it was even still a little faster,... faster than most would think. Still, it's time with all the discounts out there I thought. Stopped at a the local Benz dealership hoping the C63 I had been eyeballin' over the last couple days was still there. Next door was the dealer's Cadillac operation, which was also next door to their Audi operation, and across the street from their VW operation (typical Auto Park configuration). Long story short, the C63 was still there and unspoken for. Took it out for a little over 10 miles,... everything I expected, even a little more. Brought it back and talked and walked a bit more mustering the commitment to drop this hammer and the wife and I found ourselves smack in the middle of Cadillac country. A greeter came out and before we knew it, I was behind the wheel of the CTS-V,... cold black, 6-speed standard and with all the options, including the wider chrome 19's. Took it on the same route as the AMG, and all I can say is WOW!!! I'm seriously torn. I've given myself until Wednesday to make up my mind,... gotta do some reading, research and chatting. Ended up talking to both the Cadillac AND Merc sales persons,... at one point both at once while we were walking through the lots. Coming from a AMG, and parents having Mercs since I was in High School, I feel a tug of loyalty to the brand. I've also spent the last 13 years of my life not paying the least bit of attention to American car brands, just knowing they were junk based on my limited exposure and general feedback. But after 30 or so minutes in the CTS-V,... it's clear at some point while I wasn't paying attention, they decided to do some homework. Still a little chessy in some ways, and predictably American in other ways, the V still manages to bring some excitement with it. It's been said, and my butt confirms, the AMG is a beast in straight line performance, but that Caddy is just as brutish,... I'd hate to have to bet on one against the other. According to the lit, the V sports a calmed down version of the engine assigned to the Corvette ZR1,... just as the C63 sports a watered down 6.2 version compared to those assigned to greater AMG's. But AMG cut the 6.2 with a little more water,... the V pumps 100 more bhp out of their 6.2 liters and a ton more torque. Ah,... it was nice shifting gears again. But I know that's get old the first time I try eating a breakfast burger on the way to work. Resale value retention, reliability, service cost, yeah,... but it's a GM. These are haunting me now. I mentioned cheesy, gotta admit guys, the AMG was a little on the cheesy side as well. It's amazing what you gain in the cheesy category as you drop from the S-class to the E-class and finally to the C-class. The Caddy's interior is is nice, with the piano gloss black and chrome accenting. The stitching ain't bad either, just a little overdone in a lot of places. But here's what's really making me scratch ma head, the Caddy is compared to the M5, nudging me to compare it to the E-class. But I'm not seeing that. Yeah it's a little bigger than the C63, but I'm just not feeling the E comparison. I wouldn't be here typing this long ass whinny post if the E-class comparison was that obvious to me. That's a no brainer. The V is cheaper than the C63, and I imagine the price dif with an E-63 would be insane. I just need to hear some impressions from other C63 owners, particularly those who glanced at the '09 CTS-V. Take it easy on me with this long post please. Didn't realize it was getting this long until I looked up. I'm driving one of them home in 2 days. Thanks!!!

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[Don Black]

One concern might be the warranty if GM eventually goes under...

[Multispeed]

Very good question and you covered many good points. Please forgive MY long rant.
I too went through this dilemma. I have a cousin working at a Cataract dealership who really got on my case trying to steer me into the CTS-V. Same as you our family has a long history with Mercedes ownership, so I know the cars well. I am also old enough (46) to know that Cadillac, save for a few recent years, built cars with a different philosophy and for a different market. I think they have finally done a great job with the New V. But a Cadillac has always been those oversized, overweight, overstuffed, clumsy, cheesy, gluttonous, garish, pretentious, grandparent cars with no substance, heritage or lineage. They always came in two colors, Funeral black or Geriatric white. I will never get over that. Remember that pitiful Cimarron, and the problematic 8-6-4? And if youv'e ever drive an Escalade, it will simply reinforce this image. They have to be the most unpleasant, frustrating vehicle I have ever driven. -An Iceburg handles better.
That is the perception Cadillac has knowingly reinforced for many decades.
A mercedes has a soul, substance, is long legged, feels like it was precision engineered, and leaves you satisfied, fulfilled, and craving for more. Even the Mercedes TV commercials almost moves one to tears with awe and admiration.
To me it comes down to this; it is only one or maybe two aspects the Cadillac may be slightly superior. Strait line acceleration, that great magnetic ride control, and cornering.
Which is more important to you?
Are you willing to give up everything that is a Mercedes in trade for a few seconds faster around a racetrack? Will the Cadillac stir you as deeply and give you the same pride of ownership as a Mercedes?
The C63's with a tune and shorty headers should be the same or close to a CTSV in the quarter. In the rare situation you get beat slightly from a stoplight by a CTSV, you will still have all those thousands of miles of driving and ownership far superior to anything with a Cadillac.
Its like those kids with Mustangs over generalizing that a Mercedes is junk and a Mustang is a COMPLETELY better car because the Mustang accelerates faster than the Mercedes. Whatever...
Lastly, I think the big mistake GM is making is holding on to the Cadillac name, to any enthusiast over 20 years old it has a bad perception. If they changed the sheetmetal and called it anything else, even a Covette sedan, I would consider one.
And if you go with the C63, be sure to get the Performance Pkg.
Thank-you...

[ericpd]

Originally Posted by Don Black

One concern might be the warranty if GM eventually goes under...

You know what, I briefly thought about that. But after talking to many on the topic, even if GM cashed in, they wouldn't disappear. Too many of them on the street here and across both ponds. They'd be absorbed by some foreign brand,... prolly similar in some ways to the Mercedes/Chrysler experiment. Point is, even given the worst, service and sales would more than likely continue.

Wouldn't that be a hoot? GM buys and ruins Volvo and Saab, then sells Volvo and Saab due to Corp greed and stupidity, then gets their asses rescued by guees who,... Volvo and Saab! LOL! The last time I heard something that sweet was when Harley-Davidson became a major stock holder in AMF Sports, Inc.! Now they own a lot of bowling alleys!

[1st amg]

My opinion only....go with the Star symbol, as previoulsy posted by multispeed, the pride and ownership of Mercedes, especially AMG which is world recognized in the motorsports world is and was the clincher for me, never did I entertain the thought of comparing an American muscle sedan to this prestigious brand of AMG...I know some of you American fans and Cadillac fans are going to say "Sebring", 24 hours Lemans" whatever, Mercedes is and has been in the Formula One world forever, the most prestiogious and elite motorsport of the world. Besides, people are blown away by the C63 at stoplights, parking lots etc refusing to believe this car is bone stock.

[peet]

I wouldn't get the V for one reason - the whole fiasco they had with the diff blowing up. Go search on it at the caddy forums - but it was a farce. If that didn't exist in my memory (and I almost bought the first gen V before reading up on that) I'd say get the V. But with the way they handled that mess, even without having major cash crunch issues - all I can say is good luck if something major is mis-designed again.

As for the whole V compared to 5 series - I am so sick and tired of seeing that nonsense. This is their 3 class car, why compare it to the 5 class (and ergo C and E class)? Someone in marketing did a genius thing! Heck, someone at MB should do the same... compare the C63 to the M5 - why not? it's faster, better fuel economy and can dance on a track better because it's lighter.

P

[SebringSilver]

Originally Posted by 1st amg

My opinion only....go with the Star symbol, as previoulsy posted by multispeed, the pride and ownership of Mercedes, especially AMG which is world recognized in the motorsports world is and was the clincher for me, never did I entertain the thought of comparing an American muscle sedan to this prestigious brand of AMG...I know some of you American fans and Cadillac fans are going to say "Sebring", 24 hours Lemans" whatever, Mercedes is and has been in the Formula One world forever, the most prestiogious and elite motorsport of the world. Besides, people are blown away by the C63 at stoplights, parking lots etc refusing to believe this car is bone stock.

Actually, Mercedes and AMG have a rich history of success in endurance racing as well, with a record that eclipses anything Cadillac can even dream of.

[taylorcoleman]

I'll be a bit provacative here. If you like the CTS-V, and weigh the pros and cons of warranty, reliability, resale, etc., than go for it. All the money in the world won't help GM until good, car-enthusiast people start buying their cars. I think the CTS-V is a great step forward for GM.

As per reliability, come on now. The E9X M3 DCT transmissions are unreliable (Germans are not infallable I guess). The Nissan GTR's transmission is crap (perhaps no surprise there). It's a mixed bag out there whether you go GM, Merc, BMW, etc.

For these sorts of cars (higher-end performance sedans), IMHO, buy what makes your driving experience the best. If you're going for reliability, resale, etc., get an Accord.

[SebringSilver]

Originally Posted by taylorcoleman

I'll be a bit provacative here. If you like the CTS-V, and weigh the pros and cons of warranty, reliability, resale, etc., than go for it. All the money in the world won't help GM until good, car-enthusiast people start buying their cars. I think the CTS-V is a great step forward for GM.

As per reliability, come on now. The E9X M3 DCT transmissions are unreliable (Germans are not infallable I guess). The Nissan GTR's transmission is crap (perhaps no surprise there). It's a mixed bag out there whether you go GM, Merc, BMW, etc.

For these sorts of cars (higher-end performance sedans), IMHO, buy what makes your driving experience the best. If you're going for reliability, resale, etc., get an Accord.

You speak a great deal of sense. I don't think anyone is denying the performance credentials of the V, just advising that it's important to know what you're getting into.

[ericpd]

Originally Posted by Multispeed

Very good question and you covered many good points. Please forgive MY long rant.
I too went through this dilemma. I have a cousin working at a Cataract dealership who really got on my case trying to steer me into the CTS-V. Same as you our family has a long history with Mercedes ownership, so I know the cars well. I am also old enough (46) to know that Cadillac, save for a few recent years, built cars with a different philosophy and for a different market. I think they have finally done a great job with the New V. But a Cadillac has always been those oversized, overweight, overstuffed, clumsy, cheesy, gluttonous, garish, pretentious, grandparent cars with no substance, heritage or lineage. They always came in two colors, Funeral black or Geriatric white. I will never get over that. Remember that pitiful Cimarron, and the problematic 8-6-4? And if youv'e ever drive an Escalade, it will simply reinforce this image. They have to be the most unpleasant, frustrating vehicle I have ever driven. -An Iceburg handles better.
That is the perception Cadillac has knowingly reinforced for many decades.
A mercedes has a soul, substance, is long legged, feels like it was precision engineered, and leaves you satisfied, fulfilled, and craving for more. Even the Mercedes TV commercials almost moves one to tears with awe and admiration.
To me it comes down to this; it is only one or maybe two aspects the Cadillac may be slightly superior. Strait line acceleration, that great magnetic ride control, and cornering.
Which is more important to you?
Are you willing to give up everything that is a Mercedes in trade for a few seconds faster around a racetrack? Will the Cadillac stir you as deeply and give you the same pride of ownership as a Mercedes?
The C63's with a tune and shorty headers should be the same or close to a CTSV in the quarter. In the rare situation you get beat slightly from a stoplight by a CTSV, you will still have all those thousands of miles of driving and ownership far superior to anything with a Cadillac.
Its like those kids with Mustangs over generalizing that a Mercedes is junk and a Mustang is a COMPLETELY better car because the Mustang accelerates faster than the Mercedes. Whatever...
Lastly, I think the big mistake GM is making is holding on to the Cadillac name, to any enthusiast over 20 years old it has a bad perception. If they changed the sheetmetal and called it anything else, even a Covette sedan, I would consider one.
And if you go with the C63, be sure to get the Performance Pkg.
Thank-you...

Amazing,... your post reminds me of a video I found when I googled this topic (shortly after starting this thread in fact). It was from a show out of England call Top Gear. In the video they did a pretty good review of the new CTS-V and gave it pretty much a thumbs up. In the video, they had a professional race driver in an Audi S5 chase a CTS-V around a track,... it was unable to catch or pass the Caddy. If you haven't heard of this show, check out their site, these guys are hilarious,... had me cracking up. Wish our Motorweek was as entertaining and informative. PBS, which is where I watch Motorweek is never entertaining,... well almost never. They also had a nice video on their site of an episode pitting the C63 against the 4.0 liter M3 and the Audi S4. That outcome was pretty much as I suspected,... the C63 was superior in straight line performance and the show-off factor, the M3 was untouchable on the track and engineering, and the Audi bested both when it came to refinement, road stability and driver comfort.

Yeah,... during my searching around the net, I found a lot of info on tuning the C63,... lotta promise there. Even on this board I ran across a lot of guys opening up their AMG's. Then there's the performance package,... well the comes with the all the stuff included in AMG's PP like the Electronic LS diff. Pride of ownership is important,... it's the thing that keeps it fresh after your 12th payment. I understand that quite well. And quickly back to warranty, I forgot to mention that GM offers a extended warranty that's Corvette and Caddy specific,... sorta like our Mercedes Star package. So it's conceivable I could end up with 10 tens of coverage with very little loss of coverage after 5 years. Luckily, my C32 came with the Mercedes Star extended warranty,... I've had to use it serveral times and it works like a charm. So I wouldn't walk away with a C63 without one.

As far as Mustangs accelerating faster than Mercs,... well all I can say is that I've eaten many Mustangs over the years. Yeah, I've ventured across these kids with their pretty little birthday and graduation presents at a light or two. I remember the last,... one of those ugly green Steve McQueen things. The C32 never broke a sweat,... shortly after it shifted into 3rd (the C32's blue collar gear) he was no longer in view when I glanced to the right.

That's something else that's in the V's plus column,... it's Super Charged. I've sorta gotten used to that. that kick in the pants after-burner type sensation. Well, more google searches, and chatting. I plan on spending Monday and Tuesday doing a lot of this. Thanks for the replies and chat guys.

Eric

[ericpd]

Originally Posted by 1st amg

My opinion only....go with the Star symbol, as previoulsy posted by multispeed, the pride and ownership of Mercedes, especially AMG which is world recognized in the motorsports world is and was the clincher for me, never did I entertain the thought of comparing an American muscle sedan to this prestigious brand of AMG...I know some of you American fans and Cadillac fans are going to say "Sebring", 24 hours Lemans" whatever, Mercedes is and has been in the Formula One world forever, the most prestiogious and elite motorsport of the world. Besides, people are blown away by the C63 at stoplights, parking lots etc refusing to believe this car is bone stock.

Now that's speaking the Gospel. Couldn't agree more. Thanks for reminding me just where I am,... important when considering where you wanna go!

I see you have the 19's on your C. Nice! The one I'm looking at has the 18's. That prompts a question I really need to ask: I originally thought the PP included 19's, but this one sports 18's with the PP. Are there two PP's?

[shaker]

Originally Posted by SebringSilver

Actually, Mercedes and AMG have a rich history of success in endurance racing as well, with a record that eclipses anything Cadillac can even dream of.

Imagine how much further ahead Mercedes would have been had they not taken a hiatus from 1955 to 1993 (i think that is the timeline?) in Grand Prix/F1.

[tyanger]

A little off topic, but speaking of the history/lineage of a car (and also to correct what BO, The Anointed One, said on national TV the other night) - you gotta respect that the true inventor of the internal combustion engine automobile was Karl Friedrich Benz - (not an American as BO said)

How's that for history and experience?

[ericpd]

Ok,... Google just led me here. An interesting read. Comments please.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/com...cedes-c63-amg/

[jmf003]

Re: the discusion on whether to compare the CTS-V to the C63 or the E63 and M5, the CTS-V has essentially the same interior volume as the E63 and M5 (96 cu ft versus 97 cu ft versus 99 cu ft) while the C63 is about 10% smaller than the other three (88 cu ft). That's one of the reasons why some folks group the CTS-V with the E63 and M5 rather than the C63.

As to the OP's question on whether to seriously consider the CTS-V, it seems clear to me that the second generation CTS-V is worth a look. The first generation CTS-V had some teething problems but GM seems to have addressed those problems. Cadillac has also made some enormous brand management mistakes for at least the last forty years (and arguably 70 years) but GM seems to be addressing those mistakes, too. So definitely take a close look at the Caddy. You may prefer the Benz anyway, as most folks around here do.

[ericpd]

Originally Posted by tyanger

A little off topic, but speaking of the history/lineage of a car (and also to correct what BO, The Anointed One, said on national TV the other night) - you gotta respect that the true inventor of the internal combustion engine automobile was Karl Friedrich Benz - (not an American as BO said)

How's that for history and experience?

ROFLMAO! You caught that? I caught that too!!! Who's doing his research? Where was the person whose getting paid to cross through that sorta blunder with a big red marker,... way before he got up there behind that mic.

[tyanger]

Originally Posted by ericpd

Ok,... Google just led me here. An interesting read. Comments please.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/com...cedes-c63-amg/

The author is a communist and should be shot.

[1st amg]

Originally Posted by ericpd

Now that's speaking the Gospel. Couldn't agree more. Thanks for reminding me just where I am,... important when considering where you wanna go!

I see you have the 19's on your C. Nice! The one I'm looking at has the 18's. That prompts a question I really need to ask: I originally thought the PP included 19's, but this one sports 18's with the PP. Are there two PP's?

The north american models(U.S and canada) PP only come with the 18's, the 19's are optional every where else in the world with the pp, therefore, if you live in north america you cant get these wheels unless you order them aftermarket through your MB dealer and pay around 4k for them as I did and a number of us did in canada, well worth it as I think this completes the look of the car. Good luck on your decision, hope to see you around on this forum as this will entail you picked the right car...AMG

[hkmp5roxs]

How ironic, I just raced one yesterday we did about 50 to 120ish. He was pulling on me but not by much. He told me he had full headers and exhaust and man did it sound great! It sounded like a corvette so you gotta love it!

[ericpd]

Originally Posted by jmf003

Re: the discusion on whether to compare the CTS-V to the C63 or the E63 and M5, the CTS-V has essentially the same interior volume as the E63 and M5 (96 cu ft versus 97 cu ft versus 99 cu ft) while the C63 is about 10% smaller than the other three (88 cu ft). That's one of the reasons why some folks group the CTS-V with the E63 and M5 rather than the C63.

Oh Ok,... that makes sense. Still though, the sensation of being in a larger cabin was not upfront, obvious, or slammed you in the face. Yes,... it felt a little larger inside behind the wheel of the CTS-V, but it did give me the sensation of escaping the compactness of a C-class and graduating to the spaciousness of an E-class. But good point,... never thought along those lines.

Originally Posted by jmf003

As to the OP's question on whether to seriously consider the CTS-V, it seems clear to me that the second generation CTS-V is worth a look. The first generation CTS-V had some teething problems but GM seems to have addressed those problems. Cadillac has also made some enormous brand management mistakes for at least the last forty years (and arguably 70 years) but GM seems to be addressing those mistakes, too. So definitely take a close look at the Caddy. You may prefer the Benz anyway, as most folks around here do.

Yeah,... I'm getting a quick education as I type on the problems with their 1st gen V. Currently reading up on GM's decision to switch from 6 lug axles to 5 lug axles, and the pros and cons of that move. Another interesting read!!!

[Shooff]

I was also in your shoes, considering the CTS-V.

Few things came to mind with me.

The CTS-V was not available yet when I ordered my car, the styling of the rear section of the CTS-V made me sick, and the price tag (fully optioned C63 vs fully optioned CTS-V is more money).

That being said, the CTS-V is a bigger car, manual and more powerful. Comes with more options than the C63 as well.

Kudo's to GM for finally bringing out a CTS-V that competes, but I'd still never pay that much for a Caddy myself. But I do wish that the C63 came with 556 HP :-)

[MAN1]

Guys, didnt GM just scrap their Cadillac V division as part of cost cuts?

[jmf003]

Originally Posted by MAN1

Guys, didnt GM just scrap their Cadillac V division as part of cost cuts?

No, not exactly. GM disbanded the PVO group but are not ceasing sales of V spec cars. More info here: http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2009...y-not-so-fast/

[ericpd]

Originally Posted by Shooff

I was also in your shoes, considering the CTS-V.

Few things came to mind with me.

The CTS-V was not available yet when I ordered my car, the styling of the rear section of the CTS-V made me sick, and the price tag (fully optioned C63 vs fully optioned CTS-V is more money).

That being said, the CTS-V is a bigger car, manual and more powerful. Comes with more options than the C63 as well.

Kudo's to GM for finally bringing out a CTS-V that competes, but I'd still never pay that much for a Caddy myself. But I do wish that the C63 came with 556 HP :-)

Well actually, with all the discounts and everything, I can land on this V for just under 6 grand less, provided I select the car on the lot. Both cars are coming in considerably less than their stickers. What's interesting is the sticker on the V is way over the C63's sticker. Isn't recession wonderful? Plus GM is offering 0% money. I remember when the C63 first came out, they were going at a premium over sticker.

You're right, the V is well appointed with more options. The Bose system in the V is outstanding and in my opinion sounds just slightly better than the Merc's. I do like the option of paying zero dollars to be able to make a decision in transmission types.

============

I started this post over an hour ago. Took the time to do a FiOS search and guess what I found? Top Gear! Top Gear is on American TV. Set it to tune in and record every single show. And you won't believe it,... the first episode was about these three British guys doing a x-country drive review of a Dodge Challenger, a Corvette ZR1, and yes,... an '09 Cadillac CTS-V! What's on now are these same three comedians destroying European 18 wheelers. Not real interested in that, so I came back to the laptop to finish the post. These guys do keep you laughing!

That ZR1 ain't a bad ride,... it can hold it's own against just about whatever you name. Another indicator that GM has done some homework.

[SebringSilver]

Originally Posted by ericpd

I started this post over an hour ago. Took the time to do a FiOS search and guess what I found? Top Gear! Top Gear is on American TV. Set it to tune in and record every single show. And you won't believe it,... the first episode was about these three British guys doing a x-country drive review of a Dodge Challenger, a Corvette ZR1, and yes,... an '09 Cadillac CTS-V! What's on now are these same three comedians destroying European 18 wheelers. Not real interested in that, so I came back to the laptop to finish the post. These guys do keep you laughing!

That ZR1 ain't a bad ride,... it can hold it's own against just about you name it. Another indicator that GM has done some homework.

That's an old episode.

In any case, it sounds like you're leaning towards getting the Cadillac.

Good luck with your purchase and happy motoring.