W208 Engine Swap

[craigrhyne]

After looking at all of the ridiculously over priced options for modding my W208 CLK55, I found myself always coming back to the same question. With the cost of buying a Kleemann super charger, why is it that no one has attempted to swap the complete later supercharged engine/wiring harness/ECU from the W211 E55 into the W208 CLK55? From what I can tell both engines are based on the same basic core engine block and head. So it seems to me that the engine from the E55 would bolt into the W208 using the original W208 engine mounts, exhaust manifolds, and transmission. Using the W211 ECU and wiring harness, this swap would eliminate the need for tuning, and would create a 3200lb 500hp factory tuned car. The only potential problems that I came up with were a possible communication issue between the new ECU and the W208 gauge cluster, and issues with the speed sensitive steering and traction control. Admittedly I have no experience with Mercedes engine swaps, but I have swapped the 2JZGTE from the MKIV Toyota Supra into several different Lexus's and Toyota's. What do you guys think? Craig

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[Ted Baldwin]

Originally Posted by craigrhyne

After looking at all of the ridiculously over priced options for modding my W208 CLK55, I found myself always coming back to the same question. With the cost of buying a Kleemann super charger, why is it that no one has attempted to swap the complete later supercharged engine/wiring harness/ECU from the W211 E55 into the W208 CLK55? From what I can tell both engines are based on the same basic core engine block and head. So it seems to me that the engine from the E55 would bolt into the W208 using the original W208 engine mounts, exhaust manifolds, and transmission. Using the W211 ECU and wiring harness, this swap would eliminate the need for tuning, and would create a 3200lb 500hp factory tuned car. The only potential problems that I came up with were a possible communication issue between the new ECU and the W208 gauge cluster, and issues with the speed sensitive steering and traction control. Admittedly I have no experience with Mercedes engine swaps, but I have swapped the 2JZGTE from the MKIV Toyota Supra into several different Lexus's and Toyota's.

What do you guys think?
Craig

..........Your supra is not a Mercedes. It does not have CANBUS. No, you cannot install a W211 ECU into a W208. The ECU's are SCN coded for a specific VIN number. Further, the s/c clutch engagement is ECU controlled. And unless you solve the ECU problem your car is going to jerk like hell. I think this is currently the problem with two people who have done this so far. Further, the ECU does not only control the engine, it controls other things......windows, stereo, etc.

.......I really really find it amazing that everyone that talks about this topic seems to focus on the engine swap itself. That is easy. Otherwise very knowledgeable people seem to want ignore the Mercedes CANBUS system and pretend that it does not exist.

..........lastly, it is much much cheaper to Kleemann a W210 than to do a W211 engine swap. The W211 engine alone is more than $10K.

Ted

[craigrhyne]

Originally Posted by Ted Baldwin

..........Your supra is not a Mercedes. It does not have CANBUS. No, you cannot install a W211 ECU into a W208. The ECU's are SCN coded for a specific VIN number. Further, the s/c clutch engagement is ECU controlled. And unless you solve the ECU problem your car is going to jerk like hell. I think this is currently the problem with two people who have done this so far. Further, the ECU does not only control the engine, it controls other things......windows, stereo, etc.

.......I really really find it amazing that everyone that talks about this topic seems to focus on the engine swap itself. That is easy. Otherwise very knowledgeable people seem to want ignore the Mercedes CANBUS system and pretend that it does not exist.

..........lastly, it is much much cheaper to Kleemann a W210 than to do a W211 engine swap. The W211 engine alone is more than $10K.

Ted

If you used the W211 ECU with the W211 engine, it seems to me that the supercharger clutch issue/vin matching issue would be solved. Are you sure that the ECU controls the accessory functions of the car? I know for a fact that this is not the case in the BMW E39 M5 and E39 540i, as I helped a friend do that engine swap as well. Most cars that I have encountered either don't require any type of ECU for things such as the windows (A simple circuit breaker switch and a window regulator), or have some type of stand alone system. I find it hard to believe that in a 2001 W208 many of the accessory functions are routed through the ECU. I'll test this out later this afternoon. I'm going to unplug the ECU and see if the car still allows me to operate the windows/stereo.

[Chappy]

Originally Posted by craigrhyne

I find it hard to believe that in a 2001 W208 many of the accessory functions are routed through the ECU.

The system is enormously complex. I sat through several tech sessions at the StarTech in NC back in '05....basically every computer in the car "talks" to each other...remove/change even one and you're gonna get faults.

EDIT: You could re-wire the entire car using old school switches, etc. and then run any motor you want that will physically fit in there. Do a search - IIRC, somebody put an amercian V8 in their W208 and there were pics posted.

EDIT 2: Here's the old ebay link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Merce...01647646QQrdZ1 (Scroll way down to the bottom for some pics). Check out the boat/marine gauges, aftermarket wheel and steering column and headlight switches. Wanna bet that passenger airbag WON'T deploy?

Save yourself the trouble....get a W215 CL600 or CL65. There are several on ebay advertised at 70% off their MSRP.

[Ted Baldwin]

Originally Posted by craigrhyne

If you used the W211 ECU with the W211 engine, it seems to me that the supercharger clutch issue/vin matching issue would be solved. Are you sure that the ECU controls the accessory functions of the car? I know for a fact that this is not the case in the BMW E39 M5 and E39 540i, as I helped a friend do that engine swap as well. Most cars that I have encountered either don't require any type of ECU for things such as the windows (A simple circuit breaker switch and a window regulator), or have some type of stand alone system. I find it hard to believe that in a 2001 W208 many of the accessory functions are routed through the ECU. I'll test this out later this afternoon. I'm going to unplug the ECU and see if the car still allows me to operate the windows/stereo.

...........wellcome to Mercedes. Don't bother to test. The accessories are controlled by several SAM modules which talk to the ECU which is SCN coded to the VIN.

........Again, NO........you cannot just take a W211 ECU and plug it into a W208. First of all, the W208 uses a MAF sennsor, the W211 does not. You are so green on this issue that you should save yourself the waste of time. As chappy has mentioned, you can elect to rewire the entire car yourself if you please. There are big companies like Brabus that have swapped MB engines such as the Brabus EV12. That car is $300,000. Yes three hundred thousand dollars.

.........All this was interesting when the AMG CLK had much less HP than the rest of the AMG line up. With the CLK63, this is no longer the case. Now, what MB needs to do is to introduce the CLK63 coupe to the US market. It appears that whatever the acceleration advantage of the CLK63 has over the E63 and CLk63 convertible, is due to a gear ratio change. This can easily be accomplished in a CLK63 coupe by swapping diffs and transmission control modules. This I know can be done.

Ted

[craigrhyne]

Ok fair enough... anyone wan't to buy a CLK55?

[wnycec]

I suppose an engine swap between a 208 and a newer 550 209 would be out of the question as well?

[ProjectC55]

Originally Posted by wnycec

I suppose an engine swap between a 208 and a newer 550 209 would be out of the question as well?

Yep! Ain't happening!!!

[ProjectC55]

Originally Posted by craigrhyne

CLK55? From what I can tell both engines are based on the same basic core engine block and head. So it seems to me that the engine from the E55 would bolt into the W208 using the original W208 engine mounts, exhaust manifolds, and transmission.

Nope! They bolt up totally different and use totally different engine mounts.

[rsr911]

Those of us who have been around here for a while do know of a W208 CLK55 that does have a factory supercharger on it. The builder is extremely knowlegable and tallented. You can not believe of the custom modifications he has had to do. The ECU has been a major issue.
As mentioned before there is more than one computer that runs the car and the computers (plural) run the car. THe windows, radio, seats, engine, transmission etc. - nothing in our cars runs without the computers CORRECTLY programed and matched to the car and each other.

Sorry. AMG knows what they are doing and did not leave much on the table when they built our cars. Be happy with what you have or buy a different AMG model. They are all fantastic in their own way. I love them all.

[ProjectC55]

Originally Posted by rsr911

Those of us who have been around here for a while do know of a W208 CLK55 that does have a factory supercharger on it. :

Mbenzman!!!!! He's the owner of such a BEAST!!!

[rsr911]

Originally Posted by ProjectC55

Mbenzman!!!!! He's the owner of such a BEAST!!!

Yup - winner of the most unique AMG at last Nov AMG owners gathering!!!!

[blackbenzz]

Mbenzman did not put a E55 engine/trans/ECU in his car as far as I know. He put the s/c from a E55 on the CLK55 motor and did a bunch of supporting mods. I can just say that if you thought a Kleemann s/c was expensive, you havent seen the cost of doing that swap.

[rsr911]

Originally Posted by blackbenzz

Mbenzman did not put a E55 engine/trans/ECU in his car as far as I know. He put the s/c from a E55 on the CLK55 motor and did a bunch of supporting mods. I can just say that if you thought a Kleemann s/c was expensive, you havent seen the cost of doing that swap.

You are correct. His out put is probably higher than an W211 E55 due to the higher compression of our normally aspirated motors. It is a beast let me tell you!!!!

[blackbenzz]

Originally Posted by rsr911

You are correct. His out put is probably higher than an W211 E55 due to the higher compression of our normally aspirated motors. It is a beast let me tell you!!!!

Yup, 10.5:1 c/r will make more power than 9:1, thats for sure! But you cant run as much boost without detonation.

[rsr911]

Originally Posted by blackbenzz

Yup, 10.5:1 c/r will make more power than 9:1, thats for sure! But you cant run as much boost without detonation.

Yup that is one of the issues he has run into. Again comes back to ECU and correct programing.

[MARK CUMMINS]

Contact Dan Wang he has a CLK 55 WITH a Late AMG E55 supercharger on it
Lets just say it was NOT a SIMPLE job

[blackbenzz]

Originally Posted by MARK CUMMINS

Contact Dan Wang he has a CLK 55 WITH a Late AMG E55 supercharger on it
Lets just say it was NOT a SIMPLE job

So does mbenzman

[neilbo75]

I admire the mechanics who manage to swap in the factory AMG supercharger onto the CLK V8, but I don't see any real advantage over the Kleenmann setup. To the contrary, Kleemann generates plenty of power with lower boost, which means lower stress on the motor, less heat soak, etc. I also prefer the V8 burble of the K car versus the AMG whine.

True, if you do it right, as Benzman has done, you can get more HP out of the AMG setup, thanks to the considerably higher boost. But on street tires that seems to lead mostly to flashing yellow triangles.

[craigrhyne]

Originally Posted by Chappy

The system is enormously complex. I sat through several tech sessions at the StarTech in NC back in '05....basically every computer in the car "talks" to each other...remove/change even one and you're gonna get faults.

EDIT: You could re-wire the entire car using old school switches, etc. and then run any motor you want that will physically fit in there. Do a search - IIRC, somebody put an amercian V8 in their W208 and there were pics posted.

EDIT 2: Here's the old ebay link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Merce...01647646QQrdZ1 (Scroll way down to the bottom for some pics). Check out the boat/marine gauges, aftermarket wheel and steering column and headlight switches. Wanna bet that passenger airbag WON'T deploy?

Save yourself the trouble....get a W215 CL600 or CL65. There are several on ebay advertised at 70% off their MSRP.

Originally Posted by Ted Baldwin

...........wellcome to Mercedes. Don't bother to test. The accessories are controlled by several SAM modules which talk to the ECU which is SCN coded to the VIN.

........Again, NO........you cannot just take a W211 ECU and plug it into a W208. First of all, the W208 uses a MAF sennsor, the W211 does not. You are so green on this issue that you should save yourself the waste of time. As chappy has mentioned, you can elect to rewire the entire car yourself if you please. There are big companies like Brabus that have swapped MB engines such as the Brabus EV12. That car is $300,000. Yes three hundred thousand dollars.

.........All this was interesting when the AMG CLK had much less HP than the rest of the AMG line up. With the CLK63, this is no longer the case. Now, what MB needs to do is to introduce the CLK63 coupe to the US market. It appears that whatever the acceleration advantage of the CLK63 has over the E63 and CLk63 convertible, is due to a gear ratio change. This can easily be accomplished in a CLK63 coupe by swapping diffs and transmission control modules. This I know can be done.

Ted

Sorry to bring back an old thread, but in light of current events, toying around with my CLK55 has become much more attractive. About a week ago some punk (now caught and arrested) felt it would be a great idea to break into and vandalize my car while it sat in a parking lot along a fairly well traveled road. The cost of the resulting damage came to ever so slightly less than it would take to total the car. In reality the car should be totaled, but surprisingly Allstate used what I considered to be a ridiculously high value considering the huge price drop these things have taken over the past 6 months. Anyway, to make short story long, Allstate is now going to cut me a check for slightly less than I thought the car was worth and then give me the car back with a clean title ! It should be noted that all of the damage to the car is purely cosmetic so the car still runs and drives great.

Is it possible to install a programmable ecu that is CANBUS compatible in the W208 CLK55 (Motec M800, up and coming AEM Gen 2)? If so, it would seem that I could install any engine/tranny combination that I could physically and mechanically get into the car.

Also, if all else fails, what about leaving the factory ecu installed and running a new engine transmission as a secondary system while the car thinks it's in neutral? Is the gauge cluster connected through canbus? Because at this point the car is pretty much free, I might be open to really tearing in to this thing. It seems as though if could somehow make the locks, lights, brakes, windows, ac, and radio work in the absence of the factory engine and tranny I would be set.... Can you say 2JZ/Getrag 6spd combo?

Thanks,
Craig

[Chappy]

Originally Posted by craigrhyne

Is it possible to install a programmable ecu that is CANBUS compatible in the W208 CLK55 (Motec M800, up and coming AEM Gen 2)? If so, it would seem that I could install any engine/tranny combination that I could physically and mechanically get into the car.

Don't know.

My understanding is that Renntech now does their own programming. That's good news.

The bad news is nobody is really interested in doing development work for a 2001 or 2002 CLK55. The focus is on newer cars.

Is it "possible"? I would imagine so. But, getting eveything to work correctly could be a monumental task - the question is: What is your budget?

[craigrhyne]

Originally Posted by Chappy

Don't know.

My understanding is that Renntech now does their own programming. That's good news.

The bad news is nobody is really interested in doing development work for a 2001 or 2002 CLK55. The focus is on newer cars.

Is it "possible"? I would imagine so. But, getting eveything to work correctly could be a monumental task - the question is: What is your budget?

Chappy,
The budget would depend on how long I could ignore the fact that the project was an absolute money pit

Any interest in buying a race car?

[Chappy]

Originally Posted by craigrhyne

Chappy,
The budget would depend on how long I could ignore the fact that the project was an absolute money pit

Any interest in buying a race car?

Actually, you're in the ideal situation to make some interior changes on the car. Pull out the interior and install some race buckets - if you could lighten the car by 200lbs, put a KW suspension on and some sticky rubber...Voila!

[craigrhyne]

How much better would the KW suspension perform than the euro springs already installed on the car? ..I really don't really have all that much use for a race car, but if I could find someone who does, I would definitely be interested in selling it.

[Chappy]

Originally Posted by craigrhyne

How much better would the KW suspension perform than the euro springs already installed on the car? ...

Not sure - I'm toying with the idea of adding this suspension to my CLK. blackbenzz and some others have this setup - perhaps they will comments on the nuances.