Lowering the black

[vmspionage]

I'm thinking about lowering my black down from the stock height 15-20mm. I know the procedure is in the owner's manual but I'd like to hear if anyone has any tips or suggestions first.

Is it necessary to make any camber adjustments for that height? Are they easy to DIY or will it need to be aligned at the dealership?

Thanks,
Jeff

[AMG Dictator]

Originally Posted by vmspionage

I'm thinking about lowering my black down from the stock height 15-20mm. I know the procedure is in the owner's manual but I'd like to hear if anyone has any tips or suggestions first.

Is it necessary to make any camber adjustments for that height? Are they easy to DIY or will it need to be aligned at the dealership?

Thanks,
Jeff

15 to 20 MM? Why? Is this a cosmetic thing or a track thing? You will probably want to have it aligned after making a ride height change. YOU may be asking for trouble for normal driving.

[vmspionage]

Originally Posted by AMG Dictator

15 to 20 MM? Why? Is this a cosmetic thing or a track thing? You will probably want to have it aligned after making a ride height change. YOU may be asking for trouble for normal driving.

It would be 100% cosmetic. IMO in stock form the car looks like it's sitting a little too high. I'm not talking about slamming it or anything, just a little drop.

[jrcart]

The term "easy for a DIY" is pretty subjective. If you have a lift it will be easy, if you have to rely on a jack and jack stands I would not atempt it. Camber is not easily adjustable, although I believe Evosport now offers adustable camber plates and adjustable rear control arms for the Black Series which should simplify the process somewhat. Yes, you should do an alignment, but not an absolute. I have adjusted ride height at the track and not had problems.

...you are correct the Black sits too high in stock form, take a look at my sig photo, H&R lowering springs and a 25mm ride height adjustment and I have no tire/rubbing issues even under extremely aggressive driving and load.

[vmspionage]

Originally Posted by jrcart

The term "easy for a DIY" is pretty subjective. If you have a lift it will be easy, if you have to rely on a jack and jack stands I would not atempt it. Camber is not easily adjustable, although I believe Evosport now offers adustable camber plates and adjustable rear control arms for the Black Series which should simplify the process somewhat. Yes, you should do an alignment, but not an absolute. I have adjusted ride height at the track and not had problems.

...you are correct the Black sits too high in stock form, take a look at my sig photo, H&R lowering springs and a 25mm ride height adjustment and I have no tire/rubbing issues even under extremely aggressive driving and load.

Thanks jrcart, I was hoping that you would chime in. I don't have access to a lift so I think I'm going to take your advice and leave the camber alone.. I really want some 5-10mm spacers however. Do you know if that's something I can get from evosport? I'll probably wait for those before I worry about the alignment. A little negative camber never hurt anyone.

[jrcart]

Originally Posted by vmspionage

Thanks jrcart, I was hoping that you would chime in. I don't have access to a lift so I think I'm going to take your advice and leave the camber alone.. I really want some 5-10mm spacers however. Do you know if that's something I can get from evosport? I'll probably wait for those before I worry about the alignment. A little negative camber never hurt anyone.

I can't speak for Evosport, I'm not sure if they offer wheel spacers for the Black, but I would assume they would. I don't have any spacers on mine, just wider wheels/rubber with a slighty different offset than stock.

[SMP]

Originally Posted by vmspionage

I'm thinking about lowering my black down from the stock height 15-20mm. I know the procedure is in the owner's manual but I'd like to hear if anyone has any tips or suggestions first.

Is it necessary to make any camber adjustments for that height? Are they easy to DIY or will it need to be aligned at the dealership?

Thanks,
Jeff

Jeff, if you want to lower your car about 20mm, you should know that you won't be able to do that without changing the springs. You have to get some after market springs of your choice, probably HnR's. Keep in mind though, that not only are the springs shorter, but also stiffer. So, ride quality will suffer a little bit. At high speeds in long sweepers when the suspension is loaded up you might also hit the bump stops. Getting in and out of drive ways without scraping the front spoiler is another consideration to make.
In regards to the camber, it will have quiet a bit more when you lower the car.
I lowered my car a little bit, kept the stock springs and stiffened the shocks under compression and left the rebound alone. I also changed wheels and tires. After the work was performed I had the car aligned, which I recommend.

[DFW01E55]

Originally Posted by SMP

... I also changed wheels and tires. After the work was performed I had the car aligned, which I recommend.

What tires are you running and what are your thoughts on them?
TIA

[SMP]

Originally Posted by DFW01E55

What tires are you running and what are your thoughts on them?
TIA

Michelin PS2's. As a matter of fact I spent all day at the race track and was very happy how the tires performed. You have to go down on pressure when cold and when they heat up they are quiet sticky. Very predictable at the limit, broke the rear loose only once, but that was my mistake carrying too much speed into the corner. For street and occasional track days it's a good tire.

[DFW01E55]

Thanks SMP, are you running stock sizes?

[LZH]

I replaced my Corsas with PS2's as well and could not be happier. Or course the Corsas are better, but ONLY when heated up and it's very difficult to get them up to operating temp on the street. The PS2's have more grip available, more often, under normal everyday driving conditions. I am very happy I went with them as replacements and would highly reccommend.

[SMP]

Originally Posted by DFW01E55

Thanks SMP, are you running stock sizes?

HRE wheels, 9.5"x19" w/275's in the front and 10.5"x19" w/295's in the rear.

[jrcart]

Originally Posted by DFW01E55

Thanks SMP, are you running stock sizes?

You can go as wide as 285's up front and 305's in the rear, those are the sizes I run.

[vmspionage]

Originally Posted by SMP

Jeff, if you want to lower your car about 20mm, you should know that you won't be able to do that without changing the springs. You have to get some after market springs of your choice, probably HnR's. Keep in mind though, that not only are the springs shorter, but also stiffer. So, ride quality will suffer a little bit. At high speeds in long sweepers when the suspension is loaded up you might also hit the bump stops. Getting in and out of drive ways without scraping the front spoiler is another consideration to make.
In regards to the camber, it will have quiet a bit more when you lower the car.
I lowered my car a little bit, kept the stock springs and stiffened the shocks under compression and left the rebound alone. I also changed wheels and tires. After the work was performed I had the car aligned, which I recommend.

Thanks for the reply SMP. I was reading about the limiters in the manual but do you know how much of a drop I can get on the front without hitting them on the stock height? The manual said something about 1.1/1.6 inches stock height if I remember correctly but I'm not sure if that's the total adjustable range without pulling the wheel and looking. I'd rather not swap out the springs if I can avoid it.

I was also going to stiffen up the compression. How far did you go, just a quarter turn? I'm not too concerned about ride quality either, if I wanted a comfy ride I would have bought an SL.

[jrcart]

Originally Posted by vmspionage

Thanks for the reply SMP. I was reading about the limiters in the manual but do you know how much of a drop I can get on the front without hitting them on the stock height? The manual said something about 1.1/1.6 inches stock height if I remember correctly but I'm not sure if that's the total adjustable range without pulling the wheel and looking. I'd rather not swap out the springs if I can avoid it.

I was also going to stiffen up the compression. How far did you go, just a quarter turn? I'm not too concerned about ride quality either, if I wanted a comfy ride I would have bought an SL.

I don't think there is a correct answer for "how much of a drop you can get in the front without hitting stops", this would depend alot of how hard you are driving, and road/track conditions, different types of turns at varying speed cause the suspension to act unique and different for each turn, if most of your driving is going to be on the public roads you can go pretty low, but you still have to worry about pot holes and cubs as SMP already mentioned. There is really no correct answer, that is why these things come with adjustable suspension, so you can tailor the settings to a specific environment. My suggestion to you would be to just do some trial and error and play around with springs and settings until you find an optimal "all-around" set-up that works for you.

[vmspionage]

Originally Posted by jrcart

I don't think there is a correct answer for "how much of a drop you can get in the front without hitting stops", this would depend alot of how hard you are driving, and road/track conditions, different types of turns at varying speed cause the suspension to act unique and different for each turn, if most of your driving is going to be on the public roads you can go pretty low, but you still have to worry about pot holes and cubs as SMP already mentioned. There is really no correct answer, that is why these things come with adjustable suspension, so you can tailor the settings to a specific environment. My suggestion to you would be to just do some trial and error and play around with springs and settings until you find an optimal "all-around" set-up that works for you.

I probably should have worded this a little better but I wasn't talking about the bump stops, I was referring to the adjustment limiter they put on the shock to prevent you from dropping the car too much. The manual states that these are adjusted to the lowest height you can go without the tires rubbing. What I was trying to ask was if I adjust the car to the lowest setting (right up to the adjustment limiter) how much of a drop will I end up with?

The only thing I'm really worried about are potholes and speed bumps. I have a long driveway with a very low slope and my lowered vette gets up just fine with minimal scraping.

[jrcart]

Originally Posted by vmspionage

I probably should have worded this a little better but I wasn't talking about the bump stops, I was referring to the adjustment limiter they put on the shock to prevent you from dropping the car too much. The manual states that these are adjusted to the lowest height you can go without the tires rubbing. What I was trying to ask was if I adjust the car to the lowest setting (right up to the adjustment limiter) how much of a drop will I end up with?

The only thing I'm really worried about are potholes and speed bumps. I have a long driveway with a very low slope and my lowered vette gets up just fine with minimal scraping.

You can actually remove those little stops and lower the car further and not run into rubbing issues. I removed them and lowered my car beyond those stops and have shorter springs and wider tires and don't have any rubbing issues, those height setting appear to be very conservative.

[vmspionage]

Originally Posted by jrcart

You can actually remove those little stops and lower the car further and not run into rubbing issues. I removed them and lowered my car beyond those stops and have shorter springs and wider tires and don't have any rubbing issues, those height setting appear to be very conservative.

I'm probably going to play around with it this weekend, I'll post up some pics if I get decent results. Thanks!

[SMP]

Originally Posted by vmspionage

Thanks for the reply SMP. I was reading about the limiters in the manual but do you know how much of a drop I can get on the front without hitting them on the stock height? The manual said something about 1.1/1.6 inches stock height if I remember correctly but I'm not sure if that's the total adjustable range without pulling the wheel and looking. I'd rather not swap out the springs if I can avoid it.

I was also going to stiffen up the compression. How far did you go, just a quarter turn? I'm not too concerned about ride quality either, if I wanted a comfy ride I would have bought an SL.

Like you, I don't mind a stiffer sprung car and give up some ride quality. However, a suspension can only work properly with some kind of suspension travel. Keep in mind that our cars are not exactly light weight, and at high speeds that mass has to be absorbed by the suspension. If you lower it too far, sure looks good but there is not a lot of room for suspension travel and the car starts to bounce. Not exactly a confident feeling behind the wheel at 3 digit speeds. I was born in Germany and lived there for 2/3 of my life. The road construction there is quiet different. If you ever have been/driven there it feels like as smooth as glass. I now live in CA and unless you are on a toll road, it's bumpy as hell. If you are more concerned with looks, drop it all the way.
What I'm trying to say is, there is a compromise. Good thing is, the suspension is adjustable and all of us can set it up to their liking. I'm more performance oriented but at the same time I still like to drive this car on the street. I think I found the right balance for street and track use and hope this post will help you find yours.

[vmspionage]

Originally Posted by SMP

Like you, I don't mind a stiffer sprung car and give up some ride quality. However, a suspension can only work properly with some kind of suspension travel. Keep in mind that our cars are not exactly light weight, and at high speeds that mass has to be absorbed by the suspension. If you lower it too far, sure looks good but there is not a lot of room for suspension travel and the car starts to bounce. Not exactly a confident feeling behind the wheel at 3 digit speeds. I was born in Germany and lived there for 2/3 of my life. The road construction there is quiet different. If you ever have been/driven there it feels like as smooth as glass. I now live in CA and unless you are on a toll road, it's bumpy as hell. If you are more concerned with looks, drop it all the way.
What I'm trying to say is, there is a compromise. Good thing is, the suspension is adjustable and all of us can set it up to their liking. I'm more performance oriented but at the same time I still like to drive this car on the street. I think I found the right balance for street and track use and hope this post will help you find yours.

I agree 100% with what you're saying, but again I should say that I'm not trying to slam it I'm just trying to get rid of the "4x4 truck" wheel gap (mostly in the front). I didn't measure yet but it looks like I need about 15-20mm in the front to give me 10-15mm from the top of the tire to the lowest point of the flares and about 10mm in the back for the same level. There should still be plenty of travel left with that minor a drop and I would be very surprised if I couldn't obtain that height with the stock setup.

I was actually wondering if my car is still in some kind of transport configuration because the front just looks way too high.

[alexander stemer]

I think one must honestly consider the priorities- is the look more important or is track performance, or is street performance? If it is "looks", then I put it in the same bucket as 22" rims- the changes are counter-productive to the experience of driving.
My BS track use is limited (maybe 100 miles of the 10,000 on the car), but my street use is extensive. Personally, I can't see where lowering would help my street driving, and it will certainly hurt the next time I "find" a set of railroad tracks at night.
I love road racing cars as well, and currently have 4 race cars with street plates. The ride height that gives best handling is an extreme compromise for road use. Only my torsion bar sprung 1953 Kurtis really works on the street, and that car is really "soft" by any standards, and has a full belly pan.
In summary, the current BS ride height works really well for aggressive street driving, and my experience would lead me away from any change. If track is a priority, there is a bit of room. But even that is limited, if you will be driving on normal urban streets.
Keep us posted. AS

[vmspionage]

Here's a picture of my front wheel, you can kind of see what I'm talking about although the focus wasn't on the wheel gap when I took it:



I'll post up some better ones with measurements later.

[jrcart]

Did you already curb that wheel? 11-12 o'clock position looks like some curb rash, are you letting your wife or girlfriend drive you car? LOL!

[SMP]

Here is what my car looks like, it should give you an idea what only a small amount of lowering will do. If you really want to have only 10mm between fender and wheel, and don't get me wrong my friend, it is slammed. Just deduct the amount you'd like to lower the car from the edge of the front spoiler to the ground. You will notice that there will not be a lot of room left. You will scrape just by going into a gas station drive way. At any event, the car will look good sitting on the street, but that's about it. From a street drive ability/performance point of view I would not recommend going that low.

[jrcart]

Originally Posted by SMP

Here is what my car looks like, it should give you an idea what only a small amount of lowering will do. If you really want to have only 10mm between fender and wheel, and don't get me wrong my friend, it is slammed. Just deduct the amount you'd like to lower the car from the edge of the front spoiler to the ground. You will notice that there will not be a lot of room left. You will scrape just by going into a gas station drive way. At any event, the car will look good sitting on the street, but that's about it. From a street drive ability/performance point of view I would not recommend going that low.

SMP; Is it just the lighting in the photo or is your car missing the rear lip spoiler?