new M3 vs CLK BS

[vmspionage]

You're both wrong, it's Nürburgring, and German is my third language (I took 2 years of German study in high school). Wie geht's?

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[SMP]

Originally Posted by vmspionage

You're both wrong, it's Nürburgring, and German is my third language (I took 2 years of German study in high school). Wie geht's?

Mir geht's ausgezeichnet, danke! Ich war zu faul die Tastatur auf deutsch umzustellen. Du hast recht, dass ist genau wie mann es buchstabiert.

[vmspionage]

Originally Posted by SMP

Mir geht's ausgezeichnet, danke! Ich war zu faul die Tastatur auf deutsch umzustellen. Du hast recht, dass ist genau wie mann es buchstabiert.

I just took 2 years in high school friend, give me a break! Sprechen Sie Englisch?

[PC Valkyrie]

Originally Posted by ET550

Well obviously you are a porsche enthusiast that chooses to pick the numbers that best support your argument. you chose to pick a porsche 997 with PDK which was obviously tested at a much later date rather than the 997 C2S which Sport Auto also timed at 8:05 around Nurburgring. Maybe we should all be driving the paragon of track cars, the Aston Martin Vantage V8 which Sport Auto tested at 8:03. Bottom line is that the Sport Auto times are no more reliable or trustworthy than any body elses, and are subject to the limits of their drivers and the test conditions on that day.

Huh? Porsche enthusiast? Where did that come from? I drive a C55 AMG and a 135i and I enjoy tracking my cars so I DO pay attention to laptimes. Can I conclude from your comments that you're just a blind MB enthusiast that think MB's are the best?

I just chose to list some cars to compare to the CLK63 BS to give some perspective. And yes, Porsche 911's do pretty damn well on a track. I do think the new 997 Mk2 C2S with PDK is damn impressive as a track weapon, and it is clearly faster than the "older" 997 C2S.

Short of a head to head test with the same driver on the same day (which I think is the BEST way to compare 2 or more cars), the Sport Auto laptimes are the 2nd best thing because they use the SAME DRIVER for each of their Supertests. So yes, I still think the Sport Auto Supertest laptimes are still far better than that list you posted where laptimes from different drivers/manufacturers/magazines are all mixed together. And it certainly is more objective than emotional fanboys claiming one car is SO much better than another.

Can't accept that a V8 Vantage with R-compounds can go pretty fast? That's just denial for purely subjective reasons.

[PC Valkyrie]

Originally Posted by SMP

........Like I said before, I like Porsche and M cars and had a few. Every one was bought brand new, and sometimes I had a Porsche and M car at the same time. You have to admit, that is a perfect scenario for a true comparison.

The perfect real world comparison is if you (the same driver) could drive a E92 M3 or GT3 and CLK63 BS on the track and see which car you were faster in. Like I said earlier, I would bet that most non-pro drivers would be much faster in the BS.

[LZH]

Well I'm not a pro driver, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night And since you mention the "perfect real world comparison"; I have driven all the cars you mention on the track and I can tell you that the BS is the fastest. The n/a 911's fall on their face on long tracks where the BS can really stretch it's legs and vice versa for the BS on very short, tight technical tracks.

[jrcart]

Originally Posted by LZH

Well I'm not a pro driver, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night And since you mention the "perfect real world comparison"; I have driven all the cars you mention on the track and I can tell you that the BS is the fastest. The n/a 911's fall on their face on long tracks where the BS can really stretch it's legs and vice versa for the BS on very short, tight technical tracks.

Luke, you are wasting your breath on some of these people. I love these guys who live and die by Ring times, but who have never and probably will never track their cars. until any one of them can lay down an 8 minute lap on the Ring the conversation is pointless, the car is only as great as the driver, some cars make it easier on a driver to lay down consistantly quick lap times, but we all know the difference between running at 90% of a cars potential and running it at 100% is worlds apart and its that last 10% that makes a truelly great driver. The car is only part of the equation, any of the above mentioned cars are great track cars, buy the one that speaks to you the most or the one that is within your budget.

[LZH]

Originally Posted by jrcart

Luke, you are wasting your breath on some of these people. SNIP - but we all know the difference between running at 90% of a cars potential and running it at 100% is worlds apart and its that last 10% that makes a truelly great driver.

Well said - see ya at Willow

[SMP]

Originally Posted by vmspionage

I just took 2 years in high school friend, give me a break! Sprechen Sie Englisch?

Just playing with you, my friend . Translation: I was too lazy to change the keyboard to German letters, so no dots above the u. And that you are correct.

[transferred]

Originally Posted by SMP

By reading not only this post, but every single one about the Black Series, you have nothing but negative things to say about the car. If someone asks me for a comparison between two cars, I'll base my opinion on first hand experience, and not on what some magazine or tester has to say about it. Like I said before, I like Porsche and M cars and had a few. Every one was bought brand new, and sometimes I had a Porsche and M car at the same time. You have to admit, that is a perfect scenario for a true comparison.

I do admit that that is a good scenario. Not perfect though, as models change over the years. I must tell you though that I do not have a negative opinion of the CLK, I think it's a good car and recently stated that I was looking at buying one (I buy all my cars new too except for the AMGs which make second hand bargains).

I also think it is a better car than the E92 M3- it handles a little better and is more powerful. However, the M offers stick shift and a more highly tuned engine (though capacity of the MB V8 ensures it is the more potent). The price of the bs I felt was too high at 138,000 but if it makes its owners happy that's great. The closest I spent to that was my 996 GT3 and I had a grin every time i visited the track.

The closest MB I have driven to the bs is the E63 with performance pkg. It handled well but the bs by all accounts handles far better despite being the same weight due to the extensive mods the bs was given at the factory.

Auf wiedersehen.

I could lie and say I've driven the bs and the 997 GT3 RS but it's not in my nature. I find it hard to believe anyone here has tracked the E92 M3 and 997 GT3 as well as their BS but it's the internet so there's some that'll claim it. Also, the comment about myself and valkyrie not tracking is almost as strange one.

[SMP]

Originally Posted by LZH

Well said - see ya at Willow

Looks like a minimum of four Black Series at Willow on the 19th. Can't wait, this is going to be a fun day.

[LZH]

Originally Posted by transferred

I could lie and say I've driven the bs and the 997 GT3 RS but it's not in my nature. I find it hard to believe anyone here has tracked the E92 M3 and 997 GT3 as well as their BS but it's the internet so there's some that'll claim it.

Then I guess it's just your nature to make veiled accusations of dishonesty. I've tracked all that you mention, including 996 and 997 Cup Cars. It's not like you're talking about Enzo's, CGT's, MC12's, LP640's...the cars you question are quite plebian in the grand scheme of things. A friend of mine who is an M car nut happens to be a member at Spring Mountain. He has a new M5, M6, 4 E30 M3's (2 street, 2 track), 2 E46 M3's and the E92 M3. I have driven them all at Spring Mountain.

[Jim Brady]

Originally Posted by Cylinder Head

That's not true, and you spelled Nurburgring wrong.

I thought he was spelling it phoneticly for the retards who think a C2 is in the same universe as a BS.
Jimmy

[SMP]

Originally Posted by PC Valkyrie

The perfect real world comparison is if you (the same driver) could drive a E92 M3 or GT3 and CLK63 BS on the track and see which car you were faster in. Like I said earlier, I would bet that most non-pro drivers would be much faster in the BS.

My comparison was for street use and occasional track use. To me, the objective is to have fun at the track, and not drive the car 10/10th and risk to write off a $150,000. Neither am I willing to trailer 3 cars out to the track just to see which one I'm faster in. Sorry, but my ego is just not that big. Most of the people I know go once in a while to the track to have fun and see how track worthy their cars are. The rest of the time those cars see mostly stop and go traffic. And as you probably know, real track cars are no fun to drive on the street.

[LZH]

Originally Posted by Jim Brady

I thought he was spelling it phoneticly for the retards who think a C2 is in the same universe as a BS.
Jimmy

You crack me up, Jim. Remember that 997 C2 that was with at Willow ? Coming out of 9 (where I know he was WO) you and I passed him like he was standing still.

[Jim Brady]

Originally Posted by LZH

You crack me up, Jim. Remember that 997 C2 that was with at Willow ? Coming out of 9 (where I know he was WO) you and I passed him like he was standing still.

Luke, I must of blinked. I was more concerned with fast cars.
Jimmy

[jrcart]

Originally Posted by SMP

Looks like a minimum of four Black Series at Willow on the 19th. Can't wait, this is going to be a fun day.

Yes, it should be another fun day, I have a couple new goodies going on the car right nowthat I'm looking forward to testing out at Willow. I just hope my day does not get caalled short again.

[SMP]

Originally Posted by jrcart

Yes, it should be another fun day, I have a couple new goodies going on the car right nowthat I'm looking forward to testing out at Willow. I just hope my day does not get caalled short again.

Jim, I just got back from Evosport and your car is sitting right next to mine on the racks. I have a few things done as well and can't wait to test it at Willow. Don't want to lift the curtain, but I like that CF piece you are getting . There are a couple of things I'd like Evosport to build, but the best for me is to have them work on the car while I'm in Europe next month.
I am very excited about Willow on the 19th as well and look forward to meeting you in person.

Sascha

[LZH]

Sounds like the cf ram air hood is gonna debut at Willow ?? Sweeeeet.

[COR Forged]

Interesting thread and some great info!

[jrcart]

Originally Posted by SMP

Jim, I just got back from Evosport and your car is sitting right next to mine on the racks. I have a few things done as well and can't wait to test it at Willow. Don't want to lift the curtain, but I like that CF piece you are getting . There are a couple of things I'd like Evosport to build, but the best for me is to have them work on the car while I'm in Europe next month.
I am very excited about Willow on the 19th as well and look forward to meeting you in person.

Sascha

It's no big secret, I am just not 100% positive it will be done by the Willow event, so I don't want to advertise it if there's a chance it might not be on the car (it better be LOL). Brad said it was going to be close when he started the project and they got very sidetracked on a few other issues that "popped up" with my car, there were a few un-foreseen problems and in my typical fashion I handed Brad a to-do list that was a mile long of things I needed to get done, some repairs, preventive maintainance and some new additional new mods. This particular mod was actually supposed to have been completed by a different vendor which has no affiliation with Evosport 3 months ago but they dropped the ball. I should have went with Evosport to begin with but these other guys where closer and promised a better lead-time...live and learn, I guess.


If everything goes smoothly from here on out I hope to be able to post up some new dyno numbers, I have not had a chance to dyno the car with the Dymags and some of the various new mods installed at the same time.

[chiphomme]

I don't know why so many of you think this is an absurd comparison?
For all the power and suspension advantages the CLK has over the M3 it does has one huge weakness, its transmission. No serious track car has an automatic. And as far as 'ring times are concerned, I highly doubt a stock CLK63 ran a 7:45 (anymore than a stock GT-R did 7:29). I would guess the Black and a new M3 would be pretty close to one another if all things (other than the car) were equal.

[Bones]

Originally Posted by chiphomme

I don't know why so many of you think this is an absurd comparison?
For all the power and suspension advantages the CLK has over the M3 it does has one huge weakness, its transmission. No serious track car has an automatic. And as far as 'ring times are concerned, I highly doubt a stock CLK63 ran a 7:45 (anymore than a stock GT-R did 7:29). I would guess the Black and an a new M3 would be pretty close to one another if all things (other than the car) were equal.

It didnt run a 7:45. That was some stupid number that thrown out there by one of the US car mags. The number was given by AMG has an estimate. Sport Auto tested the Black at a few seconds over 8 minutes, same as the M3.

[Addicted2Speed]

Originally Posted by Doctodd33

i agree the BS is a better track car and it was designed for such. The M3 is more of a mass produced street car and was designed as such.......and could easily have brake lines and transmission coolers upgraded and still have enough money left over. Im just talking bang for the buck.

If you want bang for the buck, just get a used 2006 Z06 for $40k and it will smoke both of them on track and street with ease. None of these cars are good "bang for the buck".

[Jim Brady]

Originally Posted by Bones

It didnt run a 7:45. That was some stupid number that thrown out there by one of the US car mags. The number was given by AMG has an estimate. Sport Auto tested the Black at a few seconds over 8 minutes, same as the M3.

So Sport Auto is a better source than Car & Driver and why would that be? Both are secondary sources. AMG offical response is SUB 8 minutes, what is BMW's? Bernd Schneder did it in 7:45 deal with it. The M3 is very nice car and I don't think anyone on this board will take the child like approach to deny that. Actually, you sound like a porsche fan denying theat the GT-R ran a 7:29.
Jimmy