How to use a high-speed buffer

[Buellwinkle]

I don't want to get into a battle of the orbital vs. high-speed buffers but I will offer advice on high-speed buffers, the kind professionals and serious amatures use. If you have an orbital and are happy with it great. If you want to buff your car in half the time with twice the results read on. To effectively polish the paint on your car and remove swirls, embedded contaminants and oxidation you need to have a buffer than can spin a pad at the proper speed to generate heat. The heat softens the paint so that you can use less aggressive polish than you would normally use by hand or orbital. A high-speed buffer will not damage your paint (unless you drop it on your car) anymore than hand rubbing or orbital buffing. The reason you hear horror stories is that they don't use the correct equipment, the correct polish and the correct pads. I can imagine that if you use the same hand-rubbing compound on a high-speed buffer you will see what the metal under paint looks like quickly. I have buffed the plastic polyester finishes on Pianos which are way more delicate and prone to burning than clear coat so I think it's perfectly safe. So while experimenting with different stuff may suit an experienced detailer I'll try to be as specific as I can for the beginner. First off you'll need a buffer. The best buffer I've found and works for me is the Makita 7" Polisher/Sander. I have the 9217SPC because it has an electronic speed control and gives be consistent results. Other brands will work fine as long as they can go down to 1,500 rpm. Make sure it has a 5/8" arbor as most good products depend on this. Next off are pads. I recommend 6" pads for beginners because it's small enough that it's difficult to generate the type of heat that would damage paint. The larger the diameter of the pad, the hotter the paint gets, the faster you can work, the more damage you can cause. Also get pads that are around 2" thick. Thick pads will absorb some of the shock from applying the buffer and lower your risk. Don't get Velcro pads because they seem to vibrate too much since you can't get them centered perfectly. They are fine for orbital because their intent is to vibrate more. Pads come in various coarsenesses. Get a medium cut pad to remove deep swirls and a light cut pad to remove light swirls and polishing marks left by the medium pad. If you're car is lightly swirled a light cut pad is all you need. Then you need polishing compounds. What I find best is an oil based polish with a high clay content that's creamy and thick. Polishes also come in different coarseness. Use a mild cutting polish that is designed to remove light scratches and swirls with the medium cut pad. Use a light polish with the light cut pad. Do not use consumer grade swirl remover like Meguires. It will do the job but you will be wearing most of the product because it splatters like mad and you'll need more of it because it doesn't cut very well. The best place I found for polishes and pads is MalcoPro (http://www.malcopro.com/auto.htm). They typically sell to professionals but call them and have a rep come to you. They can show you how to do it and recommend products. I use Light Finish with the light cut pad most of the time. For more aggressive cutting I use Buff-Lite II. The also offer some one step stuff like Foam Pad Polish and it works well also. Although they would love to sell you gallons at a time they do offer 8 oz. bottles that will last you though several buffings for about $5. The pads are $15 each. The first step in any buffing is to strip off the old wax and dirt. Use a strong mixture of dishwashing soap and work it in real well into every nook and cranny. Dry the car afterwards. The slightest dirt will mess up your work no matter what method you use to polish. The wax buildup will gum up your foam pad and make you work harder. Also cover your tires, as it's a pain to get polish off tires. Wear soft clothing with no exposed belt buckles or rivets. Use microfiber towels for every step, have several clean ones around. Now here's the technique I use regardless of which polish/pad you need. Screw a clean pad on the polisher and put a 1" diameter blob of polish on the center of the pad. Press it against the car and turn the polisher on the slowest speed (usually 1,500 rpm). Don't do this and you will wear buffing compound. You can drape the cord over you shoulder or whatever technique keeps it from slapping against the car. Keep the pad flat against the paint and moving at all times. Do an area about 1/4 the size of the hood and use a W pattern and go around this area overlapping strokes until the polish is consumed. You want to do an area that will allow the product to be consumed. Too much product and you have a large cleanup ahead of you and too little doesn't do the work. You want to move in a slow steady pace to let the paint heat up but not stand in one place and burn it (like ironing clothes). After you’re done with the whole car wash it well with dishwashing soap to get rid of the polish dust and residue and dry it off well. If you started with the medium cut pad/polish, start the whole process over again with the light cut pad and polish. Be extra careful and avoid sharp edges on your car because paint is thinner at these points and you may wear through. If you are concerned, use masking tape over these areas. Practice on an older car until you get the feel of it. After you are done polishing and you are impressed by the shine you will need to protect it. I recommend putting wax on by hand even though some people use an orbital to do it. I find it doesn't save me time and by then you are tired of working an 8 pound polisher anyway. The wax will not make the car shinier, just protect it. The trick with wax is to use as little as possible. It makes your job of buffing off excess easier, produces less dust and saves you money. I use Klasse All-In-One available at many MB dealers. It works great and lasts months. Many people also are happy with Zaino. Stay away from cheap off the shelf products as they don't last and don't shine the way the synthetics like Klasse and Zaino do. Also I haven’t found that Glaze after waxing makes much difference. Malco Pro will have some professional glazes and such and they work well but I still prefer Klasse. If you have questions, feel free to ask. If you prefer Orbitals look at that thread. I've tried them and they are not for me.

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[Kar don]

Great thread buellwinkle, however u usually use glazes before waxes, maybe thats why u havent seen good results. I plan on purchasing a rotary buffer soon. I would rather remove embedded dirt, etc using a clay bar rather than buffing.

[Buellwinkle]

Yes, the reason that works for you is that the All-In-One is a cleaner/wax and will remove the glaze from the car. I like the All-In-One because it will remove any last remaining polish residue as it applies wax to the car.

[Kar don]

Originally posted by Buellwinkle
Yes, the reason that works for you is that the All-In-One is a cleaner/wax and will remove the glaze from the car. I like the All-In-One because it will remove any last remaining polish residue as it applies wax to the car.

I am confused? I was not talking about klasse all-in one??

[Buellwinkle]

Sorry, most products have instructions as which to use first. I've been using Klasse for a while and the wax or what they call All-In-One goes on first. Other products may go on in a different order. That's why it's best to stick to one brand for wax and glazes to be compatible with each other as Klasse is a synthetic wax and may not be compatible with caranuba waxes. I've found the Klasse glaze doesn't really make it any shinier and it's difficult to work with so I stopped using it on my car.

[Kar don]

ooooo, by glaze you meant klasse High Gloss Sealant Glaze! Now i understand. I was using the general term glaze, as like an oily based product which creates great gloss and fills swirl marks, like meguiars #7 show car glaze and 3M Imperial Hand glaze. BTW I would use the klasse Glaze after AIO because the wax coating provided by AIO is very minimal, I never got more than 2 months durability out of it, however with 4 coats of the glaze on top i got 6 months of durability. Oh yea i made this thread a sticky for ya.

[JustinTRW]

Rotaries are so much powerful and than orbitals. I'm glad you know how to use one. As almost everyone else, be careful.

BTW, Buellwinkle, which orbitals have you tried? Anything less than a PC is almost crap! I know what you mean though, all of the concours guys use rotaries.

[Buellwinkle]

I've used them years ago, before Porter Cable, like what the car washes use, the large orbital with the handles on each end. In order to make something perfectly safe, many times they end up making it less effective. It's like buying an iron that doesn't get hot enough to iron clothes correctly but is sold as completely safe, can't burn you or your clothes, would you buy one or learn to use the real thing?

But you are right, I've never used the Porter Cable orbital buffer so if anyone lives near Orange County, CA with the Porter Cable buffer and is willing to do a side by side comparison on a badly swirled/oxidized black car I would love the challenge. Maybe even get a hood from a junk yard.

[JustinTRW]

Hmmm, I'm going up to Irvine for school soon, perhaps we'll see what materializes. The PC definitely has its limitations. At some point you just will not be able to cut the paint enough to remove major blemishes.

How did you spend on the Makita? By comparison, a PC is $120 (w/ velcro backing, proper counterweight) plus $10 for each pad you purchase.

[Buellwinkle]

I have the top of the line Makita and I paid about $159. They make a non-electronic speed control one that's a little cheaper and they also make one that's just a single speed buffer that's even cheaper so I think the prices are comperable. You can also get something like a Black and Decker for under $100. The less expensive ones do have an advantage for beginers, the harder you press the slower they go making it safer. On the other hand I've also used mine for sanding, and wheel polishing so it serves double duty.


Are you going to UCI, the University of Civics and Integras? You may have to trade in that coupe for a ricer to fit in

[JustinTRW]

Yeah, I hope I don't get too sick from seeing ricers. Don't have a coupe to trade though . I will be taking my Accord up there, so maybe that is enough. Luckily home is not too far away (for better or worse I guess).

[Buellwinkle]

Sorry 'bout that, get used to reply in the w203 forum. UCI is a beutiful campus and my daughter might have gone there would it have been further away. Flying up to SF tomorrow to check out some colleges there. She starts in January.

[JustinTRW]

SF is a nice area, if a little more expensive than So. Cal.

As of right now, a yellow cutting pad and Meguiar's #9 comes no where near fixing the hood of my Accord. If DACP and a wool pad doesn't fix it, then a rotary is the only thing that can IMO.

[Buellwinkle]

I bought a pretty faded Porche 914 a while ago for $1,800 and the guy was happy to get that. I color sanded the car, used a wool pad on the high speed buffer and worked my way to the lightest foam pad. The car looked so good that a few months later I got $3,200 for it.

Meguires #9 is crap. Wool pads can only work on a high speed buffer because you need the speed and high heat the wool generates. Also wool needs a totally different technique than foam and different polishes designed for wool. Unless you really know what you are doing, stay away from wool. Use sandpaper instead and do it by hand.

If your hood paint is salvagable, color sand using a 1,500 grit and then high speed buffer with an medium cut foam pad and a medium grit polish. With your Orbital buffer use 2,000 grit, it will just take longer but I don't think an orbital will remove 1,500 grit sandpaper marks. When color sanding tape the edges so you don't wear through the paint. Soak the sand paper for about 15 minutes and keep the paper and area you are sanding very wet and change paper frequently. Always sand back and forth in one direction and not in a circular motion. If you get frustrated or want me to look at it stop by after this weekend. I love challanges.

[JustinTRW]

#9 can remove only the lightest of swirls, so consequently that is what I have for the C32. It worked.

Hmmm, the for Accord I may have to turn you loose and see what you can come up with, and then I can replicate it to finish off the car. It seems to have some very small pitting going on, which I'm not sure can be repaired without completely removing the clear and leveling the sucker down quite a bit. My goal is not to get the car looking good necessarily, just learning a process.

[Intermezzo]

Buell:

That's an impressive post on rotary usage! Thanks for the info. I had a couple of follow-up questions:

1. You recommend using an oil based polish that contains a good amount of clay. So would you recommend against using the 3M compounds since they seem use Al Oxide? Is there another line of polishes you would recommend that can be store bought?

2. Do you keep the speed at 1,500 at all times? Can one go lower...like around 1,000?

3. Can the second polishing step (to remove marring from the first compounding step) be done with the PC, or is the Rotary still the best tool for even the polishing/finishing step?

4. When working an area (assuming one applies the correct amount of compound) how long till the pad consumes the product and the area is done?

5. In addition to sharp edges, I hear all edges of panels are thin and prone to getting cut through. Should I cut near the edges first when doing a panel?

6. Would you recommend taping the trim before starting?

7. On really contoured areas of the car, it's impossible to keep the pad flat. How do you cut those areas?

Damn...I got carried away with the questions. Sorry about that! It's just that I'll be getting a rotary soon and I just need to absorb all the info I can. Of course, nothing can replace practice and experience...but research is all I can do for now.

Thanks.

[Kar don]

Originally posted by Intermezzo
Buell:

That's an impressive post on rotary usage! Thanks for the info. I had a couple of follow-up questions:

1. You recommend using an oil based polish that contains a good amount of clay. So would you recommend against using the 3M compounds since they seem use Al Oxide? Is there another line of polishes you would recommend that can be store bought?

2. Do you keep the speed at 1,500 at all times? Can one go lower...like around 1,000?

3. Can the second polishing step (to remove marring from the first compounding step) be done with the PC, or is the Rotary still the best tool for even the polishing/finishing step?

4. When working an area (assuming one applies the correct amount of compound) how long till the pad consumes the product and the area is done?

5. In addition to sharp edges, I hear all edges of panels are thin and prone to getting cut through. Should I cut near the edges first when doing a panel?

6. Would you recommend taping the trim before starting?

7. On really contoured areas of the car, it's impossible to keep the pad flat. How do you cut those areas?

Damn...I got carried away with the questions. Sorry about that! It's just that I'll be getting a rotary soon and I just need to absorb all the info I can. Of course, nothing can replace practice and experience...but research is all I can do for now.

Thanks.

Hey Intermezzo! It's good to see new faces on the forum, now we have to get you to buy another benz .

[Intermezzo]

Hey AlB!! This place is awesome. How come you never told me about it before?

[Buellwinkle]

1. You recommend using an oil based polish that contains a good amount of clay. So would you recommend against using the 3M compounds since they seem use Al Oxide? Is there another line of polishes you would recommend that can be store bought?
For some reason, quality products are not sold at local stores. Check with a vendor that mostly deals with profesionals, the good part is they come to you. I use Malco Pro because their products are not only good but inexpensive. I've used 3M products before in restorations for heaving wool pad buffing but I don't like their products for foam pad buffing. Besides, your first order is bound to be large as you'll need buffing pads, polishing compound and other stuff they have. Also the dealers that come to you can give you advise and help you get started.

2. Do you keep the speed at 1,500 at all times? Can one go lower...like around 1,000?
Most polishing machines don't go lower than 1,500. The problem with going too slow is that you won't generate the heat you need to remove swirls. Experiment with different speeds but start slow and work your way up. Sometimes I go for 2,000 rpm if I'm in a rush and the car is badly oxidized. You can tell when it's too hot because the metal will be hot to the touch, it should be warm, not hot. Also a 6" pad is very forgiving, don't worry about the speed

3. Can the second polishing step (to remove marring from the first compounding step) be done with the PC, or is the Rotary still the best tool for even the polishing/finishing step?
I only have the space and budget to work with one tool. The PC is good for applying and removing wax but I usually do that by hand.

4. When working an area (assuming one applies the correct amount of compound) how long till the pad consumes the product and the area is done?
I use about a quarter size blob of polish and cover an area about 1/4 size of the hood and go back and forth 2-3 times in each direction and the polish is gone, maybe 30 seconds. It does start to build up in the pad after a while so use less as you go. Remember, too much polish makes for more work

5. In addition to sharp edges, I hear all edges of panels are thin and prone to getting cut through. Should I cut near the edges first when doing a panel?
Some detailers use masking tape so they don't accidently hit those areas, I just learned to not do them, hit them by hand if they need it

6. Would you recommend taping the trim before starting?
Beginners should tape sharp creases and trim until they learn to avoid them, trim/emblems chews up $15 pads, not cost effective

7. On really contoured areas of the car, it's impossible to keep the pad flat. How do you cut those areas?
That's one reason I use a 6" pad that has rounded edges, I can get into some steep curves without a problem like the hood on my daughters '98 Mustang.

It's not that hard to do, common sense is all it takes. I've showed people from 16 year olds with their first car to school teachers and nobody has damaged their car and everyone was impressed.

[Intermezzo]

Buell,

That's exactly the info I was looking for. Thanks!!

[oggle]

Buell, I'm interested in getting this product now. I do have a few questions if you don't mind:

1) Why would they come out to me? Do I have to pose as a detailing shop or something?

2) My car has ton of swirls, all induced by one car wash by the idiots at PENSKE (had to get that off my chest). Which pads would you recommend? Please give link or brand/model number if possible. Thanks.

[Kar don]

Originally posted by oggle
Buell, I'm interested in getting this product now. I do have a few questions if you don't mind:

1) Why would they come out to me? Do I have to pose as a detailing shop or something?

2) My car has ton of swirls, all induced by one car wash by the idiots at PENSKE (had to get that off my chest). Which pads would you recommend? Please give link or brand/model number if possible. Thanks.

oggle, if you have little detailing experience or have never operated a buffer, i DO NOT recommend getting a rotary buffer, but rather a orbital buffer, specifically the porter cable. check the other sticky thread. Or get a panel to practice on with your rotary buffer.... if you mess up you can be worse off than you started.

[Brian_I.]

Wow, that's a lot of info to chew on. Thanks.

[tf2psycho]

clay, wetsand, high-speed buff then osolate with cleaner wax
thats the order...... i tend to skip the wetsand and high-speed part because of special cleaner wax i use......but WhatEver floats UR Boat

now wheres this fuel pump at on the 95 s500

[rlee02135]

great thread Buellwinkle
i bought a porter cable buffer from ebay and got great results