Diesel S-Class vs. Hybrid

[C5DRVR]

Diesel S-Class vs. Hybrid

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Mercedes has announced a S-Class electric hybrid for the US. While I think it is great that Mercedes has made a breakthrough in Lithium batteries, just send the U.S. the S320 CDI diesel or even better the S420 CDI diesel already. I am frustrated that Mercedes has taken the "me too" strategy of following Lexus's lead with the 460L Hybrid. If you read the magazine reports on the Lexus and hybrids in general the driveability is not good. I do not think Mercedes will be successful with being a follower here. I have driven my 2005 E320 CDI for over 100,000 miles and I have to tell you Mercedes makes one heck of a diesel. Great fuel mileage, performance, proven reliability(unlike hybrids) and TORQUE like you won't believe. Oh, and if MB USA is listening let it come here with the sport package !! I'll be first in line at the dealership. Here is the story.

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/07/17/m...oming-in-2008/

[240D 3.0T]

I'd sell my soul for a SL420 CDI.

[JRAMGV8]

I'd pass the Hybrid and go for the S420 CDI diesel.

[Untertürkheim]

Originally Posted by 240D 3.0T

I'd sell my soul for a SL420 CDI.

For me, that would be a CL420 CDI (or even better, a CL50 CDI AMG)! But out of the currently available models, I wish most for the S420 CDI to come to the US, I would be first in line. I still do not understand why there is no CL or CLS 420 CDI (especially since there is a CLS 320 CDI for many years now)...

[C5DRVR]

I just don't understand why Mercedes is not marketing to their strenghts which is their ability to make a great diesel. They have introduced a few models here in the USA but no one knows about them. They develped this Hybrid technology in conjunction with GM and BMW and it is basically electric motors housed in the transmission. I am not convinced of the long term durability not to mention the batteries. Maybe I am different but I drive a ton of miles and have grown to appreciate the durability, power, and fuel economy I have observed with my 2005 E-Class diesel. There just is no downside to owning them. Maybe GM forever ruined this market with their early 80's diesel disaster. I just wish MB USA would grow some balls and give us the offerings they already have in Europe. MB could be a leader in this country if they wanted to. Toyota marketing runs circles around Mercedes.

[scottybdiving]

Originally Posted by C5DRVR

I just don't understand why Mercedes is not marketing to their strenghts which is their ability to make a great diesel. They have introduced a few models here in the USA but no one knows about them. They develped this Hybrid technology in conjunction with GM and BMW and it is basically electric motors housed in the transmission. I am not convinced of the long term durability not to mention the batteries. Maybe I am different but I drive a ton of miles and have grown to appreciate the durability, power, and fuel economy I have observed with my 2005 E-Class diesel. There just is no downside to owning them. Maybe GM forever ruined this market with their early 80's diesel disaster. I just wish MB USA would grow some balls and give us the offerings they already have in Europe. MB could be a leader in this country if they wanted to. Toyota marketing runs circles around Mercedes.

I am with you. I live and breath diesels, litterally. You hit on an interesting subject. You are right, GM nearly single-handedly detroyed the consumer diesel market in the US. I was one of the unfortunate ones that owned a Toyota diesel pickup, a true diesel, and I couldn't give it away. Well, after 140 K, I did give it away and they drove it for another 100K and sold it to someone that drove headed to Honduras in it.

Ford was the one that started the resurection of the diesel market. They did it by outsourcing their diesel engine to I/H. Dodge followed suit about 10 years later with Cummins, and finally GM did the same with Isuzu. All of them have been very successful in doing so.

Maybe MB is unable to produce enough engines. If they are selling them faster than they can build them, they will continue to go where the margins are highest and not to the US.

[Carl Lassiter]

The London Times just tested the Prius against the 520d and the big 5 showed better mileage. Hybrids are marketing, diesels are where the real savings come.

Also, the 420CDI and especially BMW 3liter twin turbo diesel (3 liter, 35mpg, 282bhp, 228lb/ft) make for very quick machines.

[AsianML]

As mentioned before by a few of the previous posters here and elsewhere on the forum, I don't get why Mercedes doesn't try and market diesels either? Sure, they're known for powerful gas engines, but their diesel engines are legendary.

[harkgar]

Originally Posted by AsianML

As mentioned before by a few of the previous posters here and elsewhere on the forum, I don't get why Mercedes doesn't try and market diesels either? Sure, they're known for powerful gas engines, but their diesel engines are legendary.

You are right. There are diesel MB cars (the 180 D) running in Asia including China. The Hong Kong taxi fleets were dominated by the 180 D and 190 D up to the 1970s when Toyota and Datsun (Nissan) came with their column shift manual 4 speed diesels. In a few years the MB diesels were all gone.

MB excels in the engineering hardwares while the Japanese are good at electronics, execution of other people's good ideas and most importantly, customer satisfaction. The Germans were arrogant in their old "buy what we make or go elsewhere" mentality.

Look at what MB is achieving when they realize that luxury car buyers like performance and bought AMG.

[harkgar]

Originally Posted by scottybdiving

I am with you. I live and breath diesels, litterally. You hit on an interesting subject. You are right, GM nearly single-handedly detroyed the consumer diesel market in the US. I was one of the unfortunate ones that owned a Toyota diesel pickup, a true diesel, and I couldn't give it away. Well, after 140 K, I did give it away and they drove it for another 100K and sold it to someone that drove headed to Honduras in it.

Ford was the one that started the resurection of the diesel market. They did it by outsourcing their diesel engine to I/H. Dodge followed suit about 10 years later with Cummins, and finally GM did the same with Isuzu. All of them have been very successful in doing so.

Maybe MB is unable to produce enough engines. If they are selling them faster than they can build them, they will continue to go where the margins are highest and not to the US.

You must not be discouraged by the present US economy.

The USA is still the biggest market for German cars, more than the shieks in oil gushing countries. MB needs America. Americans at the moment do not like diesels though this can change. MB wants to tread gingerly in the re-introduction of diesel engines.

If diesel catches on, it is bad news for us diesel heads. The price will go up due to either demand, or more likely, taxation. Look at Europe. The politicians are harping about "carbon footprints" as if they had stepped on dog shjt.

[Phoenix]

I've heard of a few people running their diesel cars, older Benz and VW on used Vegetable / cooking oil from restaurants deep fryers.
they just filter it and put it in the tank.
simply set up a collection schedule with a few fast food establishments for their used cooking oil and its free diesel.
if this works i may consider picking up an older used Benz and do this, I am in Canada and diesel prices are about $1.25 pet Liter, this is more then premium Gas up here.
did any of you ever try this or have more info on this, i would love to hear.

[harkgar]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

I've heard of a few people running their diesel cars, older Benz and VW on used Vegetable / cooking oil from restaurants deep fryers.
they just filter it and put it in the tank.
simply set up a collection schedule with a few fast food establishments for their used cooking oil and its free diesel.
if this works i may consider picking up an older used Benz and do this, I am in Canada and diesel prices are about $1.25 pet Liter, this is more then premium Gas up here.
did any of you ever try this or have more info on this, i would love to hear.

You can do anything with a car with its warranty expired. Even older diesel engines need modifications to burn bio-diesel. Bio-diesel is not pure cooking oil.

The price of diesel is about the same as 91 octane in the Greater Toronto Area in the winter, since diesel is similar to heating oil and heating oil is in great demand in winter. The price is similar to unleaded in the summer.

If lower running cost is your goal buy a Honda Accord with a 5 speed manual transmission and 190 bhp. It does 26 mpg on unleaded and needs only non-synthetic 5W20 oil.

[1985mb]

Originally Posted by Carl Lassiter

BMW 3liter twin turbo diesel (3 liter, 35mpg, 282bhp, 228lb/ft) make for very quick machines.

Surely you've inverted the HP and Tq numbers?

The 2006 330d makes 228-hp, 369 pound-feet of torque (3.0-liter inline-six turbo-diesel engine)

The 2007 335d makes 282-hp, 428 pound-feet (3.0-liter inline six-cylinder)

Apparently, the 2009 335d (bound for the US in Fall 08! Finally!) will make, in US spec, 265 hp 425 lb-ft of torque

[harkgar]

Unfortunately this engine is going to be encumbered with piss injection or Blue-Tick technology. The car would need a "bladder" to store the precious liquid and if you do not fill up the car would lose power. Big government and tree-hugging dogs win again.

Sigh!

[C5DRVR]

Doesn't Mercedes understand that alot of the attraction to the diesels is their ability to go 300,000 miles ? The hybrid has batteries and electric motors in the tranny. No way will they will go the distance a diesel owner expects. There is an article in automobile magazine where they tested the Yukon Hybrid vs. a regular Yukon with the 5.3 gas vs a GL 320CDI. The observed mileage for the test had the fiollowing results:

Yukon Hybrid-14city/21hwy-same technology the S-class will have
Regular Yukon 11/19
GL320CDI got 23/27. The GL actually exceeded it's EPA rated 18/24 !!! My point is that Hybrids are way overated.

Mercedes is caving into the Hybrid/Al Gore BS. If they would just market their legendary diesel prowess correctly they could really get ahead. In the US they are not charging a premium for the diesel engines and I assume they can do this because they have economies of scale with these engines with all they produce for Europe. Advantage Mercedes. The japanese and american car companies are going to introduce some diesels in the US but I am reading that they will carry big $ premiums for the diesel engine options much like you see on the 3/4 ton trucks in the US do. Come on Mercedes, pull your head out and give us all the diesel options you have across the whole line.