RSSJW

Anyone know if there are any LSD's made for these cars???

Chappy

Yes. Here's a link with some info (scroll about 3/4 the way down) and look for "ASD (Automatic Locking Differential). According to the W124 Bible, it was offered as an option on the W124 diesel only.

http://groups.msn.com/W124/general.m...64648931462855

Saijin_Naib

Aw, only active up to about 19mph.

danholm

ASD is simular to ASR for the gas versions. The cars require a different diff for non ASR.

RSSJW

It would be great to find either a clutch-pack type LSD (preferable) or as a last resort, a Torque-Sensing diff such as Quaife or Torsen.

These cars REALLY need it.

myfirstbenz

16 valve w201's had LSDs, and they fit. I couldn't agree with you more that this would be a much needed improvement to an otherwise near perfect car

RSSJW

Really,.....the LSD from the 190E 2.3 16v fits the axles and housing in the W124?

jeffreyli86

16v W201s? I'm getting one then!
What's the final drive on that or is that concerned with a totally different part altogether? I would like to increase the final drive ratio by a bit and heard that W202s have the same diff too so I was gona steal one off 1 of those..

jmoney6

I was told the 4matics have a self locking rear diff.

AMGDave

You can build a LSD for a 124, but it's not necessarily easy or cheap, depending on the exact year & model of car you have. Anyway, to clear up some misconceptions:


1) The factory ASD system is a normal clutch-type limited-slip diff, PLUS an extra hydraulic function that activates to provide 100% lock when wheelspin is detected under 19mph. Above 19mph, it's a plain LSD, with approx 35% lock from the clutch pack.

2) Yes, the 190E-16 diff is a normal limited-slip (not ASD, no hydraulics). However it's a 3.27 gear ratio (w/ 185mm gears), which is crazy low for a 124. You could swap this in to a 124, but would need a matching speedo from a 124 with 3.27 gears.

3) The 4Matics have the ASD setup in the rear (LSD plus hydraulics). Yes this can swap over to a standard 124, but without the hydraulic lock function.

4) The limited-slip differential (the carrier, i.e. the part with the clutch pack, that the ring gear bolts to) is different depending on the gear ratio. So you can't take the LSD from a 190E-16 (which has 3.27 gears) and put it into a normal 124 diff with 2.65 or 2.87 gears, the spacing is different, the backlash will never be within spec. You MUST use an LSD unit that matches the proper gearset. The LSD unit from the 3.27 gears also works for 3.07, but only those two ratios.

5) You can buy a brand-new LSD unit from the Mercedes dealer (about $1150 wholesale) and pay a rear-end shop to install it for you. Not cheap, but it's new stuff, with new clutches. If you get a used unit from the salvage yard, it will need several hundred $$$'s worth of rebuilding.

6) Remember that all 124's have 185mm diffs, except the M104 and M119 engined models... those have 210mm diffs. The LSD unit for the 210mm diff is actually cheaper, about $800 wholesale, for the E320/500E/E500 with 2.65 or 2.82 gears.

7) Yes, I know what I'm talking about. No, I'm not insane. I built a limited-slip diff for my 1987 300D last year, keeping the stock 2.65 gears. It works GREAT.


An Excel spreadsheet with details on the various years, models, ratios, part numbers, etc is posted on my website at this link. If you don't have Excel, a PDF version is here.

Photos of my LSD rebuild & installation are at this link.

bluecoupe

Ahhh, closure.... Like a good burp or sneeze.

Thanks AMG Dave. As always, the true voice of knowledge. Now looking for the 210mm LSD for the widebody.

Wait.... Dave, you probably have a good one for sale right? Please PM me if you do.

AMGDave

Howdy Bluecoupe,

I assume you mean a 210mm LSD for a W124 with an M104/M119 engine, right? Assuming that is correct... and that you have 2.65, 2.82, or 3.06 gears in your 210mm diff... the best method would be to buy a new one from the dealer (~$825 wholesale). This is what I would do, if I were in your shoes. Two years ago, the same part was $2000 list, $1600 wholesale... no idea why the price dropped in half, but I wouldn't argue, lol! But nope, I don't have one available for sale at the moment.

If you could find one used, it would likely be over $400 with shipping, then you'd need to tear it apart and replace the clutches (~$250 plus labor or special tools for DIY)... that's a lot of work to save <$200.

Either way, you then need to pay a competent rear-end shop to install the LSD unit. It's a straightforward swap, but special tools (and know-how) are required to set the gear backlash, and bearing preload... it's not really a DIY procedure. Assuming you pull the diff out of your car and bring it, plus the LSD unit, to a shop... it shouldn't be more than a few hours labor to install.

myfirstbenz

AMG Dave YOU ROCK!

bluecoupe

$820 does sound like a bargain... I'll have Satish @ Motorwerks hunt & gather.

Dave, what would your large mechanical brain suggest I do for the rear diff set up on my coupe in consideration of the twin turbo conversion I'll be having installed? Power & torque will be increased significantly & low/mid range grunt is probably more important to me than high end power.

Thank you.

AMGDave

That's a tough question. As power levels increase, you generally want a taller gear ratio, since low gears aren't needed as much... and, the taller ratio will help with traction. If it were my car, I would use 2.65 gears (which are probably what you have stock). That will give decent top speed (probably 160 or so), decent MPG, and not give up much off the line either. I would not go any lower than 2.82 gears.

If power levels are really high (say, 400hp or more) then even taller gears would be nice (2.47)... but the problem with that is it gets tricky building the LSD (since there was never a 2.47 ratio used in any W124 diff housing), and also you'd have to get a VDO shop to custom modify your speedometer, or insert a converter box between the trans and speedo head (same reason - there was never a 124 speedo made for 2.47 gears).

Satish should be able to install the factory LSD for you, no problem. Don't forget that the new LSD won't include new bearings... he may recommend installing new bearings, rather than trying to remove & re-use your old ones. Not to derail the LSD thread into a turbo coupe thread, but I hope you have plans to increase braking power on your twin-turbo beast...!

bluecoupe

Good to know that my current diff should suffice for the LSD - I guess that means I can spend the savings on the silver arrows brake setup....

Thanks again for the advice Dave - please PM me if you still have that set available....

canonball

ok so the more desirable rear would be the 210 with ASR. what changes were made to the rear subframe to make it more beefier? "Every 104 and 119 engined 124 has the 1.3 liter case along with a much beefier rear subframe assembly to hold that 1.3 liter diff. [Edit: Only the M119/W124 had the stronger subframe, the M104/W124 did not. -dm]" which is the more desirable gear ?

Untertürkheim

I thought the 400E/E420 used a 2.24 rear diff ratio? That would be the ultimate for highway driving.

Saprissa

3.27 limited slip rear end is what the AMG 300E 3.2L baby-Hammer has correct ?

Carlos

Saprissa@aol.com

AMGDave

The USA 400E/E420 (124.034) came with 2.24 gears. The rest of the world got 2.65 gears in that chassis.

The factory AMG models often had different axle ratios, but I don't think they ever put a 3.27 ratio behind an M104 / 3.6L engine in the 124.032 or .052 chassis. I'm not sure though. The .031 and .051 chassis (with 3.4L engine, maybe with 3.2L also) did have 3.27 gears. Interestingly, the .032/.052 have a 2.65 ratio in the USA, but 3.06 ratio in the rest of the world.

The W124's with either 104 and 119 got the larger 210mm differential. There is nothing better about the W210 diff. The 210mm diff is fine up to at least 500hp. The V8 models have a totally different subframe, more of a tubular design than stamped steel, and it is shaped differently, and the mounting for the diff is different as well. The 210mm 124/129 diffs are the desireable ones because they are a straight swap (make sure the diff has the proper ABS or ASR sensor holes!). As to what gear ratio is desirable, that depends completely on what you need for your particular car. Gearing that is too low will kill MPG and top speed if you don't have a 5-speed automatic tranny.

canonball

ok so the 210 is a direct swap for the 185? wouldn't it be easier just to swap the whole subframe with the diff?

AMGDave

It's not a direct swap. You must make sure the input flanges are the same size and type (V8 models have 4-arm flanges, 110mm diameter I think) and the 6-cyl cars may not be the same. So, the flange may need to be changed, which requires a tool to measure friction moment (rolling torque) to ensure the internal crush sleeve is properly tensioned. The rear cover is different, but that's swappable, you need one from an E320 for a 210mm diff. And you have to make sure the axles are the proper size/length (ASR and ASD use different length axles).

Swapping the whole V8 subframe might work, I've never heard of anyone doing this, but in theory it should be fine. The problem is you'd need a subframe from a 400E, but you'd need a different diff (assuming you don't want 2.24 gears). And you'd still have the issues with the input flanges. And if your car has ABS, you *must* have a donor diff with ABS.

Bottom line - you need to figure out what gear ratio you want for your 210mm diff, and what car it's going into, then buy the proper parts to make it happen. Adding limited-slip will tack on another $1.0-$1.5k to the total.

canonball

ok so if i get a diff with asr is that not lsd?

2PHAST

The original AMG LSD's were optional on manual trans cars only because of the gearing, they were never sold on auto's or recommended. Does not mean you couldn't buy one and install it though

AMGDave

If you get an ASR diff, and your car does not have ASR, you're going to have problems... namely, no way to connect the ABS sensor. If your car has ABS, you need a 210mm diff from an ABS car, which will have the proper fittings for your ABS sensor.

LSD is totally separate, after you get everything else figured out, that is simply a matter of buying the correct LSD carrier and having it installed. You probably won't find any diffs with LSD, it was extremely rare and almost impossible to find used. Far easier to buy a new LSD unit from MB and have it installed.