Lesson on not rushing into a w124

[GEDaggett]

So here is my list of the car that I bought in Feb08

Head Gasket (oil leaking to the outside)$$$
Trans main front seal $ (and a ridiculous amount of time)
Motor mounts $
Driverside spring cracked $
Neutral Saftey switch $
Fuel Distributor (EHA/actuator)$$$
Idler arm Passenger side $
Steering dampener $ (done)
Mass Air Sensor $$ (done)
Belt and Belt tensioner $ (done)


All in all this will all cost me about $2000.00 and my time. Luckily I am decent at rebuilds and repairs. The dealership quoted me for $5900.00. So be carefull to really look the car over. Some of the things were hidden and I just didn't take the time to really look hard as the car looked to be in great shape. Other things I just didn't know to look for. You gotta rake these cars over the coals and make sure going into it you know what to look for. Take your time and wait for the right car. I still love the car and enjoy working on it, just costs a bunch of $$ to fix.

[Bigpete123]

like you mentioned... you've done really well from the perspective that you've been able to do much of the work yourself.

I'm not so handy. I've done basically all of the things you have mentioned and probably 3x more... all through an independent mechanic.

I regret not getting rid of the car before the head gasket and tranny rebuild. Some people come across well maintained 124's and are extremely happy with them. They sing praises about their reliability, etc. That has not been my experience. It's more that I really like how the car makes me feel when I drive it, so it used to be worth the pain and heartache to maintain it.

The romance is over for me. The car's worth $3k ish so I'm not putting anymore money into repairs. The next time there's a >$1k job that needs to be done, I'm either going drive it until it can't drive anymore, or I'm going to sell it.

[190E 16V]

Originally Posted by Bigpete123

like you mentioned... you've done really well from the perspective that you've been able to do much of the work yourself.

I'm not so handy. I've done basically all of the things you have mentioned and probably 3x more... all through an independent mechanic.

I regret not getting rid of the car before the head gasket and tranny rebuild. Some people come across well maintained 124's and are extremely happy with them. They sing praises about their reliability, etc. That has not been my experience. It's more that I really like how the car makes me feel when I drive it, so it used to be worth the pain and heartache to maintain it.

The romance is over for me. The car's worth $3k ish so I'm not putting anymore money into repairs. The next time there's a >$1k job that needs to be done, I'm either going drive it until it can't drive anymore, or I'm going to sell it.

Sorry to hear that, BigPete123,youcertainly put a lot into your car - tasteful, subtle, mods, well executed. I saw it, your car would be worth having at $3K, even with $1K of repairs pending. A Tercel would be half the cost, and less than half the car. Is it worth $2,000 more for the MB?
I, for one, think so. However, I can understand when, enough is enough.

Hopefully there will be a bit more happy motoring for you, for awhile.

[CharlesCarino]

this is just my personal opinion.... but i would much rather spend 3-4 grand a year on maintenance and repairs (which is on the WAY high end of the spectrum per year) than spending 500-600 a month on a new car monthly payment x how many years of the life of your loan.....

[GEDaggett]

Originally Posted by CharlesCarino

this is just my personal opinion.... but i would much rather spend 3-4 grand a year on maintenance and repairs (which is on the WAY high end of the spectrum per year) than spending 500-600 a month on a new car monthly payment x how many years of the life of your loan.....

Agreed. It's a trade off. No car payment for the probably higher cost o repair.

[Real1shepherd]

Originally Posted by GEDaggett

Agreed. It's a trade off. No car payment for the probably higher cost o repair.

But there will be a point or a 'threshold' where there is very little left to go wrong, other than normal wear & tear that all autos are subject to. To me this is a no-brainer if you adore the W124. As was said, payments on a newer MB car would far exceed mechanical repairs on your average W124. Granted I have HUGE sentimental attachment for my wagon...we're pretty much stuck to each other for life, as it took thirteen yrs to get it back.

I can tell you from a mechanical aspect that cars from the east coast, Midwest, Florida, deep south etc are to be generally avoided unless they have been stored in a bag with desiccant. Not so much because of the dreaded 'salt belt' (for the colder climates), but because of high humidity and rapid temp changes. That leads to moisture inside things that are relatively sealed-transaxles, transmissions, differentials, distributors, relay boxes, switches and engines. I've lived in those climate and then in arid climates like CO, Idaho and Eastern Washington. In the latter, cars last seemingly forever if any attempt has been made at routine maintenance. If a passenger car is rusted through, we puzzle at how it happened. I have a '62 Dode military ambulance sitting over in Idaho since '95. New gas, new tires and new batteries and it will start and drive over here. You can't make that claim in many other parts of the country. For example, same vehicle sat outside on my farm in MO and had vicious rust inside the rear differential within six months of non-use.

Believe it or not, geography will play a huge part in the condition of these cars.

Kevin

[GEDaggett]

Originally Posted by Real1shepherd

But there will be a point or a 'threshold' where there is very little left to go wrong, other than normal wear & tear that all autos are subject to. To me this is a no-brainer if you adore the W124. As was said, payments on a newer MB car would far exceed mechanical repairs on your average W124. Granted I have HUGE sentimental attachment for my wagon...we're pretty much stuck to each other for life, as it took thirteen yrs to get it back.

I can tell you from a mechanical aspect that cars from the east coast, Midwest, Florida, deep south etc are to be generally avoided unless they have been stored in a bag with desiccant. Not so much because of the dreaded 'salt belt' (for the colder climates), but because of high humidity and rapid temp changes. That leads to moisture inside things that are relatively sealed-transaxles, transmissions, differentials, distributors, relay boxes, switches and engines. I've lived in those climate and then in arid climates like CO, Idaho and Eastern Washington. In the latter, cars last seemingly forever if any attempt has been made at routine maintenance. If a passenger car is rusted through, we puzzle at how it happened. I have a '62 Dode military ambulance sitting over in Idaho since '95. New gas, new tires and new batteries and it will start and drive over here. You can't make that claim in many other parts of the country. For example, same vehicle sat outside on my farm in MO and had vicious rust inside the rear differential within six months of non-use.

Believe it or not, geography will play a huge part in the condition of these cars.

Kevin

Arizona and Nevada are great places for cars to live. Very dry and the only excessive issue is the paint getting bleached/faded.

[Bigpete123]

I totally hear you guys- I'm a CPA and have thought long and hard about the economics of selling an old car and buying new.

One thing is that you get killed on depreciation buying a new car as well.

Real1Shepherd, you say that at some point you will have replaced nearly everything and have a well running car. Here's my problem. I HAVE replaced nearly everything under the hood. I have spent at least $15k maintaining this car over the last 5 years. Probably more. And that doesn't count the money I've put into mods.

And my car still runs like poop. There is a point when I just have to recognize that the problems may not end and consider the money i've put into the car as a sunk cost.

Furthermore, there are other intangible benefits of going from an 18 year old car to a new one. Technology and safety are definitely two of them. I know the 124 is a tank, but weight does not necessarily = safety.

I'm thinking about the Honda CRV. Not the prettiest car, but other than asthetics it fits every other need we have. It has top reliability ratings, good gas mileage for its class (like 27 MPG hwy), utility (i do a lot of woodworking and could use a car with a big trunk and that can pull a trailer, and I can put my dogs in the back), etc.

Plus, when you look at it, used 2007 models are only selling for $2k less than brand new ones so the depreciation curve is pretty damn good for a new car. I'm not the guy who buys and sells his cars every 5 years. The intention would be to drive it as long as it runs and maintain it well... So the loss from depreciation becomes much less significant when you average it over a long ownership period.

My point is, money is not the only concern. Having reliable, care-free transportation and a car that fits my lifestyle also have a bearing on the decision.

What would really piss me off is if one of you guys buys my car and finds out that it was like a $100 part causing the problem all along... You'd have a car with a new top end, rebuilt tranny, and a ton of other new stuff I'm too lazy to list.

[spinlps]

Originally Posted by Bigpete123

And my car still runs like poop. There is a point when I just have to recognize that the problems may not end and consider the money i've put into the car as a sunk cost.

What would really piss me off is if one of you guys buys my car and finds out that it was like a $100 part causing the problem all along... You'd have a car with a new top end, rebuilt tranny, and a ton of other new stuff I'm too lazy to list.

I've had the same problem with "the best Indy mechanic" in town and lost faith and switched mechanics. The first car I took in for a MB "A" service, oil, lube, filter, and 86 pt. inspection. The tech in 5 seconds with just a twist of a screwdriver fixed a problem that the old shop just couldn't figure out.

That and $15 for 3 new exhaust hanger donuts, the old ones were hanging by a thread and never pointed out at the old shop, and the car runs BY FAR, WAY BETTER than it has in years.

$156 total out the door......and yeah, I won't be going back to the old shop....

[Kestas]

GED, I too have a long list of items that need to be done while my convertible is put away for the winter. The list looks not much different from yours after driving 10K.

On the other hand, my winter car - which has as many miles, is older, and sees the brunt of salt - doesn't have nearly as many problems as my E320. It's a 91 Grand Marquis.

[GEDaggett]

Originally Posted by Kestas

GED, I too have a long list of items that need to be done while my convertible is put away for the winter. The list looks not much different from yours after driving 10K.

On the other hand, my winter car - which has as many miles, is older, and sees the brunt of salt - doesn't have nearly as many problems as my E320. It's a 91 Grand Marquis.

The grand marquis probably runs so well because boats don't have that much that go wrong. The Merc is complicated in it's engeneering and I think they even have a sensor that tells you if your passenger farted (replacing that is like $1200.) I actually love working on the car because unlike most US cars the Merc is built with repair in mind. It is a mechanics dream with its layout. It just makes sense. It is just the cash that is prohibitive but I knew the risk going in. that bieng said I should have kept my 97 Saturn SL to pack the work miles.

[Kestas]

Therein lies the decision -- is this "nice ride" worth the trouble?

I have a 71 Cutlass that has 17 wires in the engine compartment. It recently had a charging problem. I knew that I could replace every component related to the charging system and stay under $100. Try doing that with an MB.

[RHW]

I think Spinlps has tagged a big part of this issue. My cars all run like tops, and I have extreme confidence in the 2 indes I use.

A trick I have used though, is I create websites for these old timers, and get them business. I am no website expert, but if you google search

Poconos Mercedes Benz repair

my guy comes up #1, as well as performing well on several other regional searches of that type. My little web hobby generates him business, so my costs are reduced significantly now.

I do this in many areas that I spend money, find a quality resource that doesn't have a site and build it.

It really does sound like it's all about finding an old school mechanic that is sharp, because while my costs haven't always been this low, my cars have run well consistently.

[OJ's DNA]

Getting back to the topic of 'rushing in' when buying these cars, I'm about to do the same thing again. Although I've owned quite a few W124's and W201's if I see one that 'looks' good and the price is right I'll just buy it and think I can fix things later. In some ways that makes sense as the age of these cars dictates that you will not get a perfect vehicle even if you're buying a hangar queen. On the other hand my approach leaves much to be desired and I should have caught things in the past that I didn't because I just bought on emotion.

Anyway maybe I'll repeat the past, maybe not but I'm looking at a 87 turbo-diesel wagon at the moment...

[GEDaggett]

Originally Posted by OJ's DNA

Getting back to the topic of 'rushing in' when buying these cars, I'm about to do the same thing again. Although I've owned quite a few W124's and W201's if I see one that 'looks' good and the price is right I'll just buy it and think I can fix things later. In some ways that makes sense as the age of these cars dictates that you will not get a perfect vehicle even if you're buying a hangar queen. On the other hand my approach leaves much to be desired and I should have caught things in the past that I didn't because I just bought on emotion.

Anyway maybe I'll repeat the past, maybe not but I'm looking at a 87 turbo-diesel wagon at the moment...

One thing I have kept is a list of all the replacement part numbers in a notebook so that I can go and look under the hood and pretty well know if they have a replaced the Wiring harness and a bunch of other things. I just will take my time and maybe even pony up the $130.00 for MB techs to go over the car and confirm it's condition. And buy no car withan idle issue.

[lkchris]

Originally Posted by OJ's DNA

Getting back to the topic of 'rushing in' when buying these cars ...

The list of things to fix is very typical of a W124. Plus add in the possible need for HVAC system fixes.

The oldest are 22 years old and the newest 13 years old, after all.

The main thing when buying them now is how many things on the list have been recently taken care of.

At this age, these things are routine maintenance, so the question is whether the previous owner stopped giving the car routine maintenance.

[ohlord]

on maint in 5 years?The whole car has not been worth 5k in 5 years.
The issue at hand is the cardinal rule.Inspect,inspect,inspect.


I don't know who came up with this tidbit,but 07's are 15 grand less than an 08.That is a huge chuck of change.

[Real1shepherd]

Originally Posted by Bigpete123

I totally hear you guys- I'm a CPA and have thought long and hard about the economics of selling an old car and buying new.

One thing is that you get killed on depreciation buying a new car as well.

Real1Shepherd, you say that at some point you will have replaced nearly everything and have a well running car. Here's my problem. I HAVE replaced nearly everything under the hood. I have spent at least $15k maintaining this car over the last 5 years. Probably more. And that doesn't count the money I've put into mods.

And my car still runs like poop. There is a point when I just have to recognize that the problems may not end and consider the money i've put into the car as a sunk cost.

Furthermore, there are other intangible benefits of going from an 18 year old car to a new one. Technology and safety are definitely two of them. I know the 124 is a tank, but weight does not necessarily = safety.

I'm thinking about the Honda CRV. Not the prettiest car, but other than asthetics it fits every other need we have. It has top reliability ratings, good gas mileage for its class (like 27 MPG hwy), utility (i do a lot of woodworking and could use a car with a big trunk and that can pull a trailer, and I can put my dogs in the back), etc.

Plus, when you look at it, used 2007 models are only selling for $2k less than brand new ones so the depreciation curve is pretty damn good for a new car. I'm not the guy who buys and sells his cars every 5 years. The intention would be to drive it as long as it runs and maintain it well... So the loss from depreciation becomes much less significant when you average it over a long ownership period.

My point is, money is not the only concern. Having reliable, care-free transportation and a car that fits my lifestyle also have a bearing on the decision.

What would really piss me off is if one of you guys buys my car and finds out that it was like a $100 part causing the problem all along... You'd have a car with a new top end, rebuilt tranny, and a ton of other new stuff I'm too lazy to list.

I would then ask, where the car came from originally (and its history?) and even then quite possibly, it might be one of the rare W124 'lemons' since it was new. I tend to agree though...that if you have replaced and done "everything" and it still runs like crap...dump it. Just make sure it doesn't turn out to be some vacuum leak, relay somewhere, or bad injector-like you say, something you over looked. Maybe at this point it would be prudent to find a top, independent MB mechanic to diagnose your problems with the car-not to fix, just diagnose. And....you're at a point where there is no recoverable money from all the repairs-given the car has a lower range of value for its age, mileage etc.

As far as your argument about safety....a W124 of '92+ vintage (maybe some earlier models as well) has modern safety equipment-but not side impact bags. However, you'll get ABS brakes, at least driver's airbag and the MB feature where the engine drops down in a frontal crash and rides along the frame rail instead of into your lap. I don't remember this for sure, but I bet there is even some side impact protection, not unlike what is done today. In reality, other safety features make for good advertising, but won't necessarily contribute to saving lives. One exception of course, would be the side impact bags, which that model didn't have yet. Other than that, it's a very safe series of autos.

Case in point; The salesman who sold me my wagon, showed me a newspaper clipping of a horrendous accident he was involved in. A full sized pickup hit him (doing about 80mph) and he was doing 60mph. Full on frontal crash....the pickup driver died and the salesman was able to walk, very bruised and shaken. The MB he was driving-'93 300CE. (I bought my '92 actually in '93) I don't think his story was some rare fluke either, as I think the cars happily sacrifice themselves for us.

Also, I agree with your logic about long ownership and the depreciation of a new car in just two yrs. What it really boils down to then, is get a MB that turns you on, is a cherry from the start and 'dig in' for the duration. However, I think the newer MB's are too reliant on computers and diagnostic codes-things that will render your car dead virtually anywhere and at the worst possible times.

Kevin

[Real1shepherd]

Originally Posted by lkchris

The list of things to fix is very typical of a W124. Plus add in the possible need for HVAC system fixes.

The oldest are 22 years old and the newest 13 years old, after all.

The main thing when buying them now is how many things on the list have been recently taken care of.

At this age, these things are routine maintenance, so the question is whether the previous owner stopped giving the car routine maintenance.

That's actually a very excellent point. Many people, as their cars age, do less and less for them. They'll give you a bucket list of excuses as to why (at the time of sale), but their reasons are moot. At some point, for whatever reason, they just didn't care anymore. In some cars (usually cheap ones) it's not that critical and they can be made to extend their mileage quite reasonably. For MB's however, I think it's just bad form to get involved with one that was let 'slide'. The cars were made to be driven, but the Germans figured you were going to be fastidious about repairing/servicing them as well.

Kevin

[RHW]

Some safety comments:

http://www.benzly.com/safety/

poster abover mentioned lack of side airbags, which we'd all love, but the brace used for side impacts shown in the pic (I think) is the old Benz answer...

From that link:

Side impact protection consists of two structural crossmembers beneath the front seats, one under the rear seat, and one at the base of the windshield.

The crossmember below the windshield also serves to prevent intrusion of the engine.

In 1973 Mercedes-Benz found that most frontal collisions do not occur straight on, but rather as offset impacts where the cars meet at an angle. Collision data revealed that 40% or less of the frontal area of the vehicle is involved in the impact.
A forked load bearing front end structure was developed to divert impact forces and also help prevent intrusion into the passenger compartment. During an offset-frontal impact, a substructure of reinforced steel panels serves to deform the body progressively and redistribute the kinetic energy. Through this structure, the incoming loads are shared by both sides of the body unit rather than concentrated to one side.

[Real1shepherd]

Originally Posted by RHW

Some safety comments:

http://www.benzly.com/safety/

poster abover mentioned lack of side airbags, which we'd all love, but the brace used for side impacts shown in the pic (I think) is the old Benz answer...

From that link:

Side impact protection consists of two structural crossmembers beneath the front seats, one under the rear seat, and one at the base of the windshield.

The crossmember below the windshield also serves to prevent intrusion of the engine.

In 1973 Mercedes-Benz found that most frontal collisions do not occur straight on, but rather as offset impacts where the cars meet at an angle. Collision data revealed that 40% or less of the frontal area of the vehicle is involved in the impact.
A forked load bearing front end structure was developed to divert impact forces and also help prevent intrusion into the passenger compartment. During an offset-frontal impact, a substructure of reinforced steel panels serves to deform the body progressively and redistribute the kinetic energy. Through this structure, the incoming loads are shared by both sides of the body unit rather than concentrated to one side.

Great link, thanks. I thought I remembered something about side impact reinforcement in the W124.

Don't forget that newer cars with side impact bags are compensating for the lighter steels used throughout the car to save weight. These steels are supposed to be high-tensile. That's fine but at a significant thickness reduction. Lighter cars means better gas mileage. It's simple physics when a car that weighs close to 4000lbs hit's a car that weighs under 3000lbs. A smaller, lighter car can only absorb so much energy from an impact before it compromises its passengers, no matter what safety equipment it has. Which would you rather be riding in (in a full frontal crash), my wagon or a new Prius?

Kevin

[Saijin_Naib]

Actually, it is simple physics. Given the forces of friction on the car in an accident the lighter car will be most likely to break free of the forces of friction and be pushed infront of the car that hit it. This would increase the time of the moment of impact thus decreasing the severity of the impact. Couple this with the improvements in airbags and other impact restraints such as pretensioning belts and you're probably much better off in the newer car. Now, if the lighter car is to be "sandwiched" between the oncoming car and something else, your advantage might be to be in the steel tank.

[ksing44]

Originally Posted by Bigpete123

I'm thinking about the Honda CRV. Not the prettiest car, but other than asthetics it fits every other need we have. It has top reliability ratings, good gas mileage for its class (like 27 MPG hwy), utility (i do a lot of woodworking and could use a car with a big trunk and that can pull a trailer, and I can put my dogs in the back), etc.

I just read a review about a Honda CRV diesel that sounded awesome. They were getting as much as 49mpg on the highway, even better than advertised. They said the Honda diesel 4-cylinder would come to the US first in 2010 in an Acura TSX, but hopefully it will also come shortly thereafter in other models. I think if you can just hang in there for a bit longer there may be many new cars that get much better mileage.

I am one of those guys that is letting things accumulate a bit in my 1995 W124. It isn’t so much that I am letting it go as it just seems the car is working ok without fixing the issues. My head gasket and front timing cover have been leaking to the outside for 3 or 4 years now and it doesn’t seem to matter at all. I don’t even lose enough oil to have to top it off between regular oil changes. That is in spite of the fact that the dealer and one Indy MB specialist both thought I should fix the leaks. When I finally do have to do the head gasket, I am planning to replace the wiring harness, which has not been done since new. My current Indy said just to keep an eye on things. My transmission also developed a shift flair after a routine service. That was also 3 or 4 years ago now and a slight vacuum modulator adjustment seems to be keeping me on the road. Let me see, I have also had a pretty good leak in the AC compressor for about 2 years now. I get the system recharged at the beginning of the hot part of the summer and so far I have been making it through the summer with cold AC. If I fixed all of these things, it would have cost quite a bit of money, even with a very reasonable Indy. Anyway, I do love my car. It is definitely a cool automobile, even with the accumulating flaws.

My son will be driving soon and my wife and I are planning to give him my wife’s 2001 Honda Accord. She will get a new very fuel-efficient car, maybe a diesel Honda something. I am hoping for someone to come up with a diesel hybrid with the motor shutoff technology to extend mileage well beyond 70mpg. Now if one of these days we can drive 100mpg on WVO, then I may even buy a new car. Just think, GM and Ford could stay in business if they had planned ahead and actually developed such a vehicle. For now, I am planning to keep my W124.