E320 '97 straight six oil leak at head

[tm4exc]

In my last visit to MB for the major 120k miles service I was told by the Service Advisor that I had the "common" ailment of a weep/seep of oil through the head gasket to the outside of the engine. (the car has been absolutly trouble free except for the backlight going out under the temp side on the central dispay every 30K ) I was told it was a common fix issue on engines with this mileage. He was astonished that I had never had the head gasket changed. Quoted $1200 to fix and two days of labor, I deferred with watching any minute movement on the dipstick. 600 miles later still no movement ( the engine has never used even a cup of oil between changes), drips onto the engine compartment shield below or any addtional wet look leaks i am still wondering about the problem. Any others with the same problem/experience?

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[tirona]

oil leaking from the head cover is something common for the m104 (your engine). it probably is leaking from the timing cover (1-2hrs job, $150-$200max), and not the headgasket. headgasket leaking was more common on the w124's, not on w210's. it doesn't hurt anything, because it is an external leak. if you can live with a drop of oil in your garage floor, than i would just leave it alone for now. mine has been doing the same thing for a long time now (years). i used to put synthetic on mine (mobil1 10w30), than i switched to dino oil (mobil delvac 15w40). m104 doesn't require only synthetic oil, so you can put regular oil in it. leakage minimized a lot after that. i don't add oil between oil changes, and i change it every 3-4k miles or so. all i get is a couple of drops of oil on the floor in a few days.
when i was worried about my car, i did get very valuable advice from another member, his name is LOUBAPACHE. he is very knowledgable regarding these engines, you might want to ask him.

[Untertürkheim]

What oil do you use. For tirona, 10w-30 is not a MB approved oil for any engine. IT is too thin, probably why it leaked. And synthetic oils are always better, period.

[tm4exc]

The MB service shop uses 15/40 (stated on the service order) changed every 7500 miles per the service guide they gave me on delivery. Probably not synthetic as the cost appears to low for synthetic. (my Porche used M1 and the cost was always over $8/liter) My E320 has always been serviced by MB, first 90k up in Fremont at Claridge and now in SB by SB Auto Group through the last 30K so I am quite sure it got the right viscosity oil. I am inclined to go with the top cover as the source, but will continue to monitor. thanks for the advice.

[tirona]

Originally Posted by Untertürkheim

What oil do you use. For tirona, 10w-30 is not a MB approved oil for any engine. IT is too thin, probably why it leaked. And synthetic oils are always better, period.

i don't think 10w30 is so thin to leak out. also 1997 e320 is not a fss car, and synthetic wasn't required, and the dealers were using regular oil. how is synthetic better, especially for an older engine with high miles? (i'm not trying to be a smartass, simply asking)

[ohlord]

then he certainly can run 10w30 in dino oil in a 97 as long as it meets mb spec
For Vehicles Without Flexible Service System: USA vehicles MY 1997 and earlier
IMPORTANT: Engine oils are labelled on the container with various ACEA (Association des Constructeurs Européens d'Automobiles) and /or API (American Petroleum Institute) designations of quality. Mercedes-Benz recommends the use of MB approved engine oils listed in the Mercedes-Benz oil specification sheet 229.3 or 229.5 which also meet ACEA and/or API classifications listed on the chart below. If a MB approved or ACEA quality engine oil is not available, then an API quality engine oil meeting the below listed API classifications can be used. Only engine oils (including synthetic) with any of the following classification grades, or combinations thereof, are approved.

Engine
MB Sheet
ACEA Classification1
API Classification1
Gasoline
229.3 229.5
Synthetic oil in a 97 is not required,and changing to it now ,will lead to even more leakage.
Synthetic oil is most definitely not always better esp. in engines that did not have sealing compounds and gaskets constructed to accommodate it's lubrication qualities.
And 10w30 is thicker at all temps then 0w30 so on a high mileage engine with frequent oil and paper filter changes he is okay,**********as long as he lives in a warm weather state otherwise 10w30 wt.is to thick for cold weather states*********
http://www.whnet.com/4x4/oil.html
ohlord
"GOT CODES?"

[JeffreyP]

Actually Ohlord, 229.3 229.5 are for longer FSS interval (98+) so all of these oil are synthetic and not readily available. The only 229.3 that's around (say Walmart) is Mobil1 0W40 and it's also synthetic.

tm4exc, I think it's your best bet to use sheet 229.1, dyno to help with leak. But you'll have to change it more often (say 3500 mi) rather than at 7500.

[tm4exc]

Originally Posted by JeffreyP

Actually Ohlord, 229.3 229.5 are for longer FSS interval (98+) so all of these oil are synthetic and not readily available. The only 229.3 that's around (say Walmart) is Mobil1 0W40 and it's also synthetic.

tm4exc, I think it's your best bet to use sheet 229.1, dyno to help with leak. But you'll have to change it more often (say 3500 mi) rather than at 7500.

Thanks to you all for the insight and advice.

[ohlord]

ACEA Classification1


API Classification1

Gasoline


229.3
229.5 mb sheet


A3
B3


SJ
SL
tahts why I said to meet mb specs which for non mb sheet synthetic oil needs to meet the above api classification.Paper filter and more frequent oil changes.
We are on the same page
keep an eye on the leak and keep the engine at proper oil level.

[tirona]

tm4exc, another thing i would add, is make sure when changing the oil not to refill it to the max. go somewhere between 1/4 - 1/2 of "min - max" line in the oil dipstick, which means less than 7 L. (i put somewhere between 6&1/2 -7). perfect would be in the middle of the line. mb did reduce years ago the oil capacity on the m104 from 7.5L to 7, i think mainly because these engines were leaking. to check the oil wait 3-4 minutes after you turn-off the engine so the oil drips down to the bottom, and check the stick. car should be at operating temp between 80-90C.

[tm4exc]

Originally Posted by tirona

tm4exc, another thing i would add, is make sure when changing the oil not to refill it to the max. go somewhere between 1/4 - 1/2 of "min - max" line in the oil dipstick, which means less than 7 L. (i put somewhere between 6&1/2 -7). perfect would be in the middle of the line. mb did reduce years ago the oil capacity on the m104 from 7.5L to 7, i think mainly because these engines were leaking. to check the oil wait 3-4 minutes after you turn-off the engine so the oil drips down to the bottom, and check the stick. car should be at operating temp between 80-90C.

Thanks!!!

[Untertürkheim]

Originally Posted by tirona

i don't think 10w30 is so thin to leak out. also 1997 e320 is not a fss car, and synthetic wasn't required, and the dealers were using regular oil. how is synthetic better, especially for an older engine with high miles? (i'm not trying to be a smartass, simply asking)

Synthetic oils are always better, for any engine. They do not leave varnish or sludge in your engine. Even if you change dino oil every 500 miles, you cannot avoid varnish. Since they have a more uniform and more stable molecular structure, they flow better at lower temperatues and resist thermal breakdown at higher temperatures (i.e. around piston rings). They also always reduce engine wear and timing chain stretch.

That being said, I would use Mobil 1 0w-40 in your car.

[ohlord]

has been on dino oil,it leaks already,even mobil and amsoil state that synthetic oil is for well maintaind engines with no leaks,so if they recognize that synthetic oil is not always the best oil for all engines,why do you keep pushing the line it is?
Let's try and help the guy with information that won't contribute to his main concern,which is oil seepage from gaskets .
ohlord
"GOT FACTS?"

[Untertürkheim]

Originally Posted by ohlord

has been on dino oil,it leaks already,even mobil and amsoil state that synthetic oil is for well maintaind engines with no leaks,so if they recognize that synthetic oil is not always the best oil for all engines,why do you keep pushing the line it is?
Let's try and help the guy with information that won't contribute to his main concern,which is oil seepage from gaskets .
ohlord
"GOT FACTS?"

Regarding facts, I have a quite a lot regarding lubricants and/or Mercedes. First of all, we have not established the type of leak, if it is in fact a leak, which would be coming from a broken gasket, or a seep, perhaps from a loose valve cover.

I have several family members who work for Daimler, one of which was a chief engineer for 30 years. I can assure you that in that position you have a lot of exposure to engine lubrication issues and gain a very comprehensive knowledge of lubricants and their properties.

The fact is that synthetic lubricants are superior in performing every function they are intended to, lubrication, particulate dispertion, acid neutralization, detergency, to name a few. The fact remains that the only way to fix a leaking seal is to address the seal, not the substance it is meant to contain. In addition, synthetic lubricants will usually extend the life of seals and gaskets since they prevent varnish buildup and stablilize ph more effectively. I have a lot experience switching high milage cars to syn fluids, and my friends who did not originally use it have also switched. So far, with at least 20 examples I personally know of who switched from dyno to synthetic, there have been no negative results.

Feel free to request any further facts.

[ohlord]

the wrong guy in this battle.You happen to be mistaken,Ill informed,and just plain wrong.
I appreciate all the benefits of synthetic oil, I use it is in all of my newer cars,however the varnish build up in older engines from the dino oil is exactly what helps prevent the seepage or leaks so common in some older engines,when you change to the higher detergency smaller chained molecule synthetic oil it clears the varnish coating the inside of seals and gaskets and causes leaks.
Don't really care if you know anyone at Benz,I can find a hundred Mercedes engineers that will concur with the facts
From the mobil 1 web site on using synthetic oil in an older engine,and i quote
"as long as the engine is in good mechanical condition"
now his engine is experiencing symptoms at 120000plus miles that would indicate problems with gaskets that are common to the models engine variant,I will let him decide whom to follow on this decision.
ohlord

[Untertürkheim]

Well, I am 20 minutes from Sindelfingen, how about I go there on Monday, and I will ask anyone you want.

[ohlord]

Stuttgart,and ask Dieter.You can go to mobil and ask them.
If synthetic oil is "always best" why do the builders of High performance engines use conventional oil to break engines in?If we followed your advice the money and time spent building a precision engine would be wasted when all the bearings and cam lobs failed.
I have 40+ years of performance cars under my belt.You?
I have pointed out several instances where syn oil is not better
case closed
ohlord
An excerpt from another industry source:

"Case in point, older engines which were designed to run with traditional mineral oil will take no benefit whatsoever from synthetic oil, they are simply not built to process a substance that does not have the properties of regular oil. In fact, some older cars, due to more fragile seals, gaskets, and other vital engine parts, may have their engines further degraded by the harsher products that go into composing synthetic oil. In cases such as these, it is very possible and even likely that synthetic oil will damage your engine and drastically shorten the life of your vehicle.
So, if we have now figured out that synthetic oil can be damaging, the question remains as to when it should be used. Of course, synthetic oil is a superior product, and as a result, most new car engines are designed with synthetic oil in mind, thus they have engines that are maximized for the use of such artificial lubricants. If you are not sure about your car, then there are a couple venues that you can go through to find out. First, consult either a dealership or the owners manual of your car, either of these two sources should be able to tell you for a fact if you should be using synthetic oil for your vehicle, or whether you should be avoiding it."
He with his already prone to head gasket and timing cover leaks m104 engine should avoid it.

[tm4exc]

Originally Posted by tirona

tm4exc, another thing i would add, is make sure when changing the oil not to refill it to the max. go somewhere between 1/4 - 1/2 of "min - max" line in the oil dipstick, which means less than 7 L. (i put somewhere between 6&1/2 -7). perfect would be in the middle of the line. mb did reduce years ago the oil capacity on the m104 from 7.5L to 7, i think mainly because these engines were leaking. to check the oil wait 3-4 minutes after you turn-off the engine so the oil drips down to the bottom, and check the stick. car should be at operating temp between 80-90C.

I think you have something there about overfilling. I just had my car serviced about 1000 miles ago and the oil level is just over the top of the full mark with a cold engine. It drops down to just at the full mark when warm and having been shut off for a few minutes. I washed all of the old residue off today and will now watch very carefully for a top cover leak. Clearly with the oil level not moving significantly it cannot be more than a weep in any event. Thanks for all of the advice about oil types. MB in SB is using the right oil per the manual. 15/40 dino.

[ohlord]

Hope the weeping gasket stays just a minor issue.

[waybomb]

FWIW, I had the leak on the 104 in my 129. I read somewhere that somebody had retorqued the head bolts in the area and the problem went away.

So, I figured, what the heck, I'll give it a try. That was about 50,000 miles ago. No leaks anymore, and it was bad.

[ccmbduong]

If it's a true head gasket leak, it would cost you $1800 even at an indy MB garage, I know, I had to replace mine (1996 E320) at 72K miles (yes right, MB quality at its best ). I think MB recommend 0-40W syns oil for my car, FWIW

[tirona]

head gasket on a m104 is about 8-10 hrs. how is that equal to $1800? $180 per hour? i would say an indy would charge somewhere around the $800. dealer probably between $1600-2000.

[jbenz99]

can i used mobile 1 full syn 5 w30 on my 1999 e320 with 99,000 miles?if not what oil can i used please

[ohlord]

0w40 syn is what you need.Walmart,napa.

with the fleece filter from autohausaz.com

[OceanView]

You guys are touchy on this subject.
For the record, not all M104 engines leak.
The 96+ models used a different head gasket.