Mercedes Buys Braun GP

[Case1906]

Extremely interesting. MB has bought a controlling interest in World Constructor's Champion Braun GP and we will see the return of the Silver Arrows in F1 in 2010. Not to worry, as MB will continue to power Vodafone McLaren Mercedes and will remain a partner. The old saying goes, 'if you can't beat 'em, buy 'em.' The real story seems to be Mercedes competition concerns with McLaren's forthcoming ventures into the super-car arena.

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[kchristos]

Originally Posted by Case1906

Extremely interesting. MB has bought a controlling interest in World Constructor's Champion Braun GP and we will see the return of the Silver Arrows in F1 in 2010. Not to worry, as MB will continue to power Vodafone McLaren Mercedes and will remain a partner. The old saying goes, 'if you can't beat 'em, buy 'em.' The real story seems to be Mercedes competition concerns with McLaren's forthcoming ventures into the super-car arena.

Its more like the second one, Mercedes cannot support a team who is going to be their direct competitor in the sports car business. It is better for their marketing as well. The last few years McLaren managed to ruin their reputation along with the companies that support them; Spygate, liegate, Alonso-Hamilton disputes and issues, I never liked the fact that they were fueling Kovalainen much heavier than Hamilton continuously from day one of his contract without openly announcing/admitting that their N clear No.1 driver is Hamilton (note that they were constantly advertising that they treat both their drivers the same which is far from reality).

I think Button probably signed the same deal with McLaren as well, to be 2nd to Hamilton even though from next year the teams won't be able to favor one driver vs the other very easily due to the fuel rules.

[Case1906]

Originally Posted by kchristos

I never liked the fact that they were fueling Kovalainen much heavier than Hamilton continuously from day one of his contract without openly announcing/admitting that their N clear No.1 driver is Hamilton (note that they were constantly advertising that they treat both their drivers the same which is far from reality).

I think Button probably signed the same deal with McLaren as well, to be 2nd to Hamilton even though from next year the teams won't be able to favor one driver vs the other very easily due to the fuel rules.

Kovi is a natural number 2 driver. The idea that McLaren turned him into one is humorous. To McLaren's credit, they never did state the obvious--a difference in the talent levels of their drivers which is/was self evident. There was a huge talent gap, and one has to have drivers relatively close in talent to raise complaints about equipment, fuel loads and the like. It's like Rubens Barichello believing that he would have been as good as Schumacher at Ferarri if ....... Kovi was never able to push a car during the race and the idea of fueling him light so he could go backwards and pit early would not be a sound strategy. First Renault, now McLaren, and I'm sure you will see similar second chair performances from him in future if he ever gets another ride. McLaren did not have to create a 1-2 arrangement with him. It happened naturally for the second season in a row.

Can't imagine that Button signed a #2 deal. As World Champion why would he or why would McLaren ask him to? If McLaren wanted such an arrangement they would simply keep Kovi for less money. I think Button will have equal equipment and stategies, as is the McLaren tradition-much like the Alonso days with two top notch drivers. We'll see if he as quick as Lewis and can maintain the same race pace. It should be fun to watch and I wish them both well.

[F1Bobby]

Case you may be right on this. Let me say this before I say anything. I'm not real impressed with Hamilton, Kovi or Button. It will be interesting to see the Button/Hamilton interaction at McLaren. It surely won't be the fireworks of Hamilton/Alonso. My money is on Hamilton to come out on top at VMM.
Button is a mid pack driver at best... The real fireworks will be over at Ferrari with Massa and Alonso. Ol' Alonso may have his hands full with trying to deal with Massa.

[Case1906]

Originally Posted by F1Bobby

Case you may be right on this. Let me say this before I say anything. I'm not real impressed with Hamilton, Kovi or Button. It will be interesting to see the Button/Hamilton interaction at McLaren. It surely won't be the fireworks of Hamilton/Alonso. My money is on Hamilton to come out on top at VMM.
Button is a mid pack driver at best... The real fireworks will be over at Ferrari with Massa and Alonso. Ol' Alonso may have his hands full with trying to deal with Massa.

Alonso and (rookie) Hammy were close to equals in the same equipment 2 years ago. What would Hamilton need to do to impress you going forward? Agree, with you on the red cars and the VMM situation. I really hope Massa has a full recovery, and I hope Alonso will be able to deal with a team-mate who just as quick (or quicker).

[F1Bobby]

Hamilton is Ok but IMHO he is just not one of those drivers like Mansell, Ayrton, Prost, Schumacher etc... Is he fast? The answer is yes but he is not in the ranking of those mentioned above. When Kimi is on his game he's as fast as anyone but he has that motivation issue. Alonso is also fast but he too is not in that A-group. What makes Alonso fast is his race craft, kind of like Prost.
Providing the crash did not take anything away from Massa I think Massa is the fastest guy out there at the moment. I think we may see Vettel step up to the group above. The kid has a ton of talent.

[Martinsvi]

I would say tha Vettel and Massa are the top 2 right now. I dearly hope that Massa shows the spanish taxi driver the way of the real racer. Alonso is going to expect special treatment at Ferrari and if he doesnt get it then we will see another scandal with Ferrari as he will start it.
Alonso was in the middle of the whole spygate affair and tried to Blackmail Ron Dennis of McLaren for preferential treatment using the spygate data as the stick if McLaren didnt cooperate, So Ron Dennis takes the info to the FIA and helps them start the investigation that ends up costing McLaren 100 million US.(You are not going to cooerce Ron Dennis)
Fastforward to this year and the whole crashgate scandal. (I know that Alonso was found innocent of any wrong doing but I dont buy it)
Bottom line is Alonso is too much like Senna was, he must be the only 1 that the team workd for and the other driver has to get the crumbs.
I hope Massa wipes the floor with Alonso and then Ferrari will realize they have been taken again.
If I had to rate the top drivers in F1 it would be Hamilton, Massa, Vettel, Raikkenen,Barrichell, Alonso,Button and Kubica in that order.
Hamilton in his rookie year went toe to toe with a 2 time world champion and held his own and would have won if the pressure hadnt got to him. In his second year he won the championship, and this year he took a really bad car and won 2 or 3 races in which he really shouldnt.
Massa was competitive when he came under Schumachers wing and helpe Raikkenen win his wdc and for the last 2 years has been the class of the Ferrari team.
Vettel is brilliant but he is still a little destructive, he either wins or crashes/ Blows up.
Raikkenen is a great driver and cares notheing about the PR end of the sport which is his undoing, I do admire him for going his own way.
Barrichello is a great drive who understands alot more about the setup than the newer younger racers.
Alonso is a great driver as long as he has the best equipment of the field, if his car is not at the top he cannot compensate for the cars misgivings the way the greats could(Schumacher,Prost,Piquet sr.,and others.
The rest are midfield racers at best and this includes the world champion Button.

[F1Bobby]

Martinsvi, You are pretty much spot on with that write up. I do have to disagree with where you ranked Hamilton. He's fast but probably 4th or 5th in the field!

[Martinsvi]

As much as I would like to agree with you I cant. I dont particularly like Hamilton or his father and the way they have their relationship with McLaren. But they have developed a good relationship.
Hamilton has also produced when others couldnt or havent.
If there was a true race of champions where they all got a car that was prepared by the same group of mechanics, same engine and same everything else and they were allowed 3o minutes to setup the car and get ready to race then we could truly sperate out some guys but as it is we are going to watch what is in front of us.
I still stand by the ratings I gave the drivers and I know alot of my fellow F1 fans in Europe will say I am crazy, but I am 49 and have been following the sport since I was 8 and I wont budge on theis.

[Case1906]

Originally Posted by Martinsvi

If I had to rate the top drivers in F1 it would be Hamilton, Massa, Vettel, Raikkenen,Barrichell, Alonso,Button and Kubica in that order.
Hamilton in his rookie year went toe to toe with a 2 time world champion and held his own and would have won if the pressure hadnt got to him. In his second year he won the championship, and this year he took a really bad car and won 2 or 3 races in which he really shouldnt.
Massa was competitive when he came under Schumachers wing and helpe Raikkenen win his wdc and for the last 2 years has been the class of the Ferrari team.
Vettel is brilliant but he is still a little destructive, he either wins or crashes/ Blows up.
Raikkenen is a great driver and cares notheing about the PR end of the sport which is his undoing, I do admire him for going his own way.
Barrichello is a great drive who understands alot more about the setup than the newer younger racers.
Alonso is a great driver as long as he has the best equipment of the field, if his car is not at the top he cannot compensate for the cars misgivings the way the greats could(Schumacher,Prost,Piquet sr.,and others.
The rest are midfield racers at best and this includes the world champion Button.

Kovi didn't make your list?

Well, I generally agree with your list, but would move Alonso up and at least ahead of Rubens. I'd like to see Sutil with a top team. In the right equipment he might be able to show that he could make your list.

[F1Bobby]

Martinsvi, Hey no worries. I too have been an F1 fan for quite some time (now 56). As you know the discussions of who is faster have been going on since before Fangio was riding a tricycle... The only thing I would like to see F1 return to is make the damn cars as fast as they can be with the old gumball slicks...
Hopefully the new Silver Arrow team will pick up where Brawn left off. I hope Kimi signs with them.

[Martinsvi]

To Case1906, I like Kovi but he doesnt have it. He was with arguably the best team in the sport last year and couldnt even come off with 1 win..much less a few podiums. And I dont rate Alonso as high because I dont think he is that good. When he won his championships those 2 yrs he had the car of the field, and nobodys car was even close. I rate drivers with how they perf orm in lesser cars and when they drive a similar car against know drivers of a ranked class. In neither case has he shown brilliance. W@hen Schumacher won his first championship his car was at best a 3rd place car but he drove the whells off of it and won the championship. Same thing his first 2 yrs at Ferrari, he was winning races and almost championships with a known lesser car, he just outdrove his competition. In all of Schumachers years of driving only Mika Hakkenin challenged and intimidated him.


F1 Bobby, yeah you and I have probably seen the best days of F1 as this group of self centered buttheads are trying to ruin it faster than Obama is the US.
I agree that it would be great if they would allow the teams to develope the cars to be the fastest in the world. But as long as Bernie and Max or his puppets are in control of the FIA, the sport is doomed.

[F1Bobby]

Originally Posted by Martinsvi

To Case1906, I like Kovi but he doesnt have it.

F1 Bobby, yeah you and I have probably seen the best days of F1 as this group of self centered buttheads are trying to ruin it faster than Obama is the US.
I agree that it would be great if they would allow the teams to develope the cars to be the fastest in the world. But as long as Bernie and Max or his puppets are in control of the FIA, the sport is doomed.

You are absolutely spot on!

[lkchris]

It's Brawn, not Braun, BTW.

Or at least it was.

[Case1906]

Originally Posted by lkchris

It's Brawn, not Braun, BTW.

Or at least it was.

Good eye. Got them confused with my electric razor............

[hakaida442]

Originally Posted by Martinsvi

I would say tha Vettel and Massa are the top 2 right now. I dearly hope that Massa shows the spanish taxi driver the way of the real racer. Alonso is going to expect special treatment at Ferrari and if he doesnt get it then we will see another scandal with Ferrari as he will start it.
Alonso was in the middle of the whole spygate affair and tried to Blackmail Ron Dennis of McLaren for preferential treatment using the spygate data as the stick if McLaren didnt cooperate, So Ron Dennis takes the info to the FIA and helps them start the investigation that ends up costing McLaren 100 million US.(You are not going to cooerce Ron Dennis)
Fastforward to this year and the whole crashgate scandal. (I know that Alonso was found innocent of any wrong doing but I dont buy it)
Bottom line is Alonso is too much like Senna was, he must be the only 1 that the team workd for and the other driver has to get the crumbs.
I hope Massa wipes the floor with Alonso and then Ferrari will realize they have been taken again.
If I had to rate the top drivers in F1 it would be Hamilton, Massa, Vettel, Raikkenen,Barrichell, Alonso,Button and Kubica in that order.
Hamilton in his rookie year went toe to toe with a 2 time world champion and held his own and would have won if the pressure hadnt got to him. In his second year he won the championship, and this year he took a really bad car and won 2 or 3 races in which he really shouldnt.
Massa was competitive when he came under Schumachers wing and helpe Raikkenen win his wdc and for the last 2 years has been the class of the Ferrari team.
Vettel is brilliant but he is still a little destructive, he either wins or crashes/ Blows up.
Raikkenen is a great driver and cares notheing about the PR end of the sport which is his undoing, I do admire him for going his own way.
Barrichello is a great drive who understands alot more about the setup than the newer younger racers.
Alonso is a great driver as long as he has the best equipment of the field, if his car is not at the top he cannot compensate for the cars misgivings the way the greats could(Schumacher,Prost,Piquet sr.,and others.
The rest are midfield racers at best and this includes the world champion Button.

i'd rank them hammy, alonso, vettel. interesting team to watch will be force india as funny as that sounds. they impressed me late in the season. i dont know if all of the new teams is going to be a good thing. i expect them to all suck for a few years. and i have no hope for usf1 team.

[F1Bobby]

Originally Posted by hakaida442

i'd rank them hammy, alonso, vettel. interesting team to watch will be force india as funny as that sounds. they impressed me late in the season. i dont know if all of the new teams is going to be a good thing. i expect them to all suck for a few years. and i have no hope for usf1 team.

With Schumacher back in the mix this could be one of the most eventful years in some time.
Force India was reasonably impressive in the last races of the season!
I am sticking to my beliefs that Massa will out drive Alonso more times this year that he won't!

[hakaida442]

Originally Posted by F1Bobby

With Schumacher back in the mix this could be one of the most eventful years in some time.
Force India was reasonably impressive in the last races of the season!
I am sticking to my beliefs that Massa will out drive Alonso more times this year that he won't!

it depends on how many races will be on a wet track. massa has shown me nothing that he can win on a wet track