Forget global warming: Welcome to the new Ice Age

[LRM1]

Originally Posted by tyro Of course, especially in the politically charged threads Open mouth awaiting your hook.

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[LRM1]

Has anyone here ever heard of "The Little Ice Age"?

[Jayhawk]

Originally Posted by MG

http://www.dailytech.com/Temperature...ticle10866.htm

Good catch! Thanks for sharing...

[Jayhawk]

Originally Posted by Samoan_Ridah

In Samoa, the people live mostly on the outskirts of the island which is basically on the waterfront. It's amazing to see how fast the water level is rising there. I was there in 1981, 1996, 2003 and then in 2007 and the changes are drastic. The main road goes all the way around the island right along the ocean in most parts and now the waves sometimes crash onto the road while you're driving. There are places where there used to be beautiful beaches and now are just a few feet of sand and then water.

I'm almost certain that the country will be wiped out within the next 50 years or so at the current rate.

Why do you think the water is rising?

[MG]

Water displacement increase from Samoan swimmers. The USA has opened up, like, 100 McDonalds on that tiny island. Have you seen the size of those people now?

[Jayhawk]

Originally Posted by LRM1

Has anyone here ever heard of "The Little Ice Age"?

It is a myth, IMO. Little or no agreement on when it started or stopped and virtually no agreement on what geography was even affected.

[LRM1]

This is a long one, but I don't like links. It is said that the reason Stratovarius violins are as good as they are is because of the condition of the trees during this period. None the less, it can be easily said that none of this was caused by SUV's right?

Western Europe experienced a general cooling of the climate between the years 1150 and 1460 and a very cold climate between 1560 and 1850 that brought dire consequences to its peoples. The colder weather impacted agriculture, health, economics, social strife, emigration, and even art and literature. Increased glaciation and storms also had a devastating affect on those that lived near glaciers and the sea.


Impact on Agriculture
Lamb (1966) points out that in the warmest times of the last 1000 years, southern England had the climate that northern France has now. For example, the difference between the northen-most vineyard in England in the past and present-day vineyard locations in France is about 350 miles. In other terms that means the growing season changed by 15 to 20 percent between the warmest and coldest times of the millenium. That is enough to affect almost any type of food production, especially crops highly adapted to use the full-season warm climatic periods. During the coldest times of the LIA, England's growing season was shortened by one to two months compared to present day values. The availability of varieties of seed today that can withstand extreme cold or warmth, wetness or dryness, was not available in the past. Therefore, climate changes had a much greater impact on agricultural output in the past.

Fig. 16 and 17 show the price of wheat and rye, respectively, in various European countries during the LIA.



Figure 16: Prices of wheat expressed in Dutch guilders per 100 kg. in various countries vs. time. (Source: Lamb, 1995)


Figure 17: Price of rye in Germany vs. time expressed as an index. (Source: Lamb, 1995)
Each of the peaks in prices corresponds to a particularly poor harvest, mostly due to unfavorable climates with the most notable peak in the year 1816 - "the year without a summer." One of the worst famines in the seventeenth century occurred in France due to the failed harvest of 1693. Millions of people in France and surrounding countries were killed.

The effect of the LIA on Swiss farms was also severe. Due to the cooler climate, snow covered the ground deep into spring. A parasite, known as Fusarium nivale, which thrives under snow cover, devastated crops. Additionally, due to the increased number of days of snow cover, the stocks of hay for the animals ran out so livestock were fed on straw and pine branches. Many cows had to be slaughtered.

In Norway, many farms located at higher latitudes were abandoned for better land in the valleys. By 1387, production and tax yields were between 12 percent and 70 percent of what they had been around 1300. In the 1460's it was being recognized that this change was permanent. As late as the year 1665, the total Norwegian grain harvest is reported to have been only 67 - 70 percent of what it had been about the year 1300 (Lamb, 1995.)

Fig. 18 shows a chronology of dearth and famine in Scotland during the LIA. Broken lines are years with reported dearth and full lines are years with reported famine.



Figure 18: Dearth and famine in Scotland during the LIA. (Source: Lamb, 1995)
Dots represent years with severe losses of stock (sheep and cattle), usually because of snow.


Impact on Wine Production
People keep records of their most important crops, grapes for wine-making being no exception. Ladurie (1971) notes that there were many "bad years" for wine during the LIA in France and surrounding countries due to very late harvests and very wet summers. The cultivation of grapes was extensive throughout the southern portion of England from about 1100-1300. This area is about 300 miles farther north than the areas in France and Germany that grow grapes today. Grapes were also grown in northern France and Germany at that time, areas which even today do not sustain commercial vineyards. At the time of the compilation of the Domesday Survey in the late eleventh century, vineyards were recorded in 46 places in southern England, from East Anglia through to modern-day Somerset. By the time King Henry VIIIth ascended the throne there were 139 sizeable vineyards in England and Wales - 11 of them owned by the Crown, 67 by noble families and 52 by the church (English-wine.com). In fact, Lamb (1995) suggests that during that period the amount of wine produced in England was substantial enough to provide significant economic competition with the producers in France. With the coming cooler climate in the 1400's, temperatures became too cold for grape production and the vineyards in southern England gradually declined.

German wine production also declined during the cooling experienced after the MWP and during the LIA. Between 1400 and 1700 German wine production was never above 53% of the production before 1300 and at times was as low as 20% of that production (Lamb, 1995.)


Impact on Forests During the Little Ice Age
A study of the tree populations in forests of Southern Ontario by Campbell and McAndrews (1993) shows how the tree population in Europe might have been changed by the LIA. Their analysis of pollen demonstrated that after the year 1400, beech trees, the formerly dominant warmth-loving species, were replaced first by oak and subsequently by pine. Further, the forest under study appears to have remained in disequilbrium with the prevailing climate of today. That suggests that tree population distribution takes hundreds of years to recover from major climate changes.


Impact on Health
The cooler climate during the LIA had a huge impact on the health of Europeans. As mentioned earlier, dearth and famine killed millions and poor nutrition decreased the stature of the Vikings in Greenland and Iceland.

Cool, wet summers led to outbreaks of an illness called St. Anthony's Fire. Whole villages would suffer convulsions, hallucinations, gangrenous rotting of the extremities, and even death. Grain, if stored in cool, damp conditions, may develop a fungus known as ergot blight and also may ferment just enough to produce a drug similar to LSD. (In fact, some historians claim that the Salem, Massachusetts witch hysteria was the result of ergot blight.)

Malnutrition led to a weakened immunity to a variety of illnesses. In England, malnutrition aggravated an influenza epidemic of 1557-8 in which whole families died. In fact, during most of the 1550's deaths outnumbered births (Lamb, 1995.) The Black Death (Bubonic Plague) was hastened by malnutrition all over Europe.

One might not expect a typically tropical disease such as malaria to be found during the LIA, but Reiter (2000) has shown that it was an important cause of illness and death in several parts of England. The English word for malaria was ague, a term that remained in common usage until the nineteenth century. Geoffrey Chaucer (1342-1400) wrote in the Nun's Priest Tale:


You are so very choleric of complexion.
Beware the mounting sun and all dejection,
Nor get yourself with sudden humours hot;
For if you do, I dare well lay a groat
That you shall have the tertian fever's pain,
Or some ague that may well be your bane.
In sixteenth century England, many marshlands were notorious for their ague-stricken populations. William Shakespeare (1564-1616) mentioned ague in eight of his plays. Oliver Cromwell (1599-1658) died of ague in September 1658, which was one of the coldest years of the LIA.

Five indigenous species of mosquito are capable of transmitting malaria in England where they prefer the brackish water along river estuaries. The anaerobic bacterial flora of saline mud produces a strong sulfur odor that was widely believed to be the cause of agues in salt marsh areas (i.e. Shakespeare's "unwholesome fens.") The term malaria comes from the Italian term "mala aria" meaning "bad air."


Impact on Economics
In addition to increasing grain prices and lower wine production, there were many examples of economic impact by the dramatic cooling of the climate. Due to famine, storms, and growth of glaciers ,many farmsteads were destroyed, which resulted in less tax revenues collected due to decreased value of the properties (Lamb, 1995.)

Cod fishing greatly decreased, especially for the Scottish fisherman, as the cod moved farther south. The cod fishery at the Faeroe Islands began to fail around 1615 and failed altogether for thirty years between 1675 and 1704 (Lamb, 1995.) In the Hohe Tauern mountains of the Austrian Alps, advancing glaciers closed the gold mines of the Archbishop of Salzburg who was one of the wealthiest dukes in the empire. The succession of two or three bad summers where the miners could not rely on work in the mines caused them to find employment elsewhere, which resulted in an abrupt end to the mining operations (Bryson, 1977.)

Not all of the economic impact was bad. The fertile fishing grounds of the present day Newfoundland Banks were thought to have been found by fisherman in the late 1400's who were looking for the fish stocks that had deserted their former grounds as the result of the movement of colder waters from the north (Lamb, 1995.)

English fisherman benefited by the southern movement of herring normally found in the waters off Norway. This increase in deep-sea fishing helped to build the maritime population and strength of the country (Lamb, 1995.) The failure of crops in Norway between 1680 and 1720 was a prime reason for the great growth of merchant shipping there. Coastal farmers whose crops failed turned to selling their timber and to constructing ships in order to transport these timbers themselves (Lamb, 1995.)


Social Unrest
Conditions during the LIA led to many cases of social unrest. The winter of 1709 killed many people in France. Conditions were so bad, a priest in Angers, in west-central France, wrote: "The cold began on January 6, 1709, and lasted in all its rigor until the twenty-fourth. The crops that had been sewn were all completely destroyed.... Most of the hens had died of cold, as had the beasts in the stables. When any poultry did survive the cold, their combs were seen to freeze and fall off. Many birds, ducks, partidges, woodcock, and blackbirds died and were found on the roads and on the thick ice and frequent snow. Oaks, ashes, and other valley trees split with cold. Two thirds of the vines died.... No grape harvest was gathered at all in Anjou.... I myself did not get enough wine from my vineyard to fill a nutshell." (Ladurie, 1971) In March the poor rioted in several cities to keep the merchants from selling what little wheat they had left.

The winter of 1739-40 was also a bad one. After that there was no spring and only a damp, cool summer which spoiled the wheat harvest. The poor rebelled and the governor of Liège told the rich to "fire into the middle of them. That's the only way to disperse this riffraff, who want nothing but bread and loot." (Ladurie, 1971)

Lamb (1995) reports the occurrence of cattle raids on the Lowlanders by Highlanders who were stressed by the deteriorating climate. In 1436, King James I of Scotland was murdered while hunting on the edge of the Highland region near Perth. The clan warfare grew so bad that it was decided that no place north of Edinburgh Castle was safe for the king so Edinburgh became the capital of the country.

In England, the effect of starvation and the poor condition of the country encouraged men to enlist during the War of the Roses (1455-1485.) As tillable land was converted to other uses such as sheep rearing, the landlords who organized the conversions became the focus of many hostilities.

One group in particular suffered from the poor conditions - people thought to be witches (Behringer, 1999.) Weather-making was thought to be among the traditional abilities of witches and during the late fourteenth and fifteenth centuries many saw a great witch conspiracy. Extensive witch hunts took place during the most severe years of the LIA, as people looked for scapegoats to blame for their suffering.

One of history's most notorious quotes might have been due in part to a rare extremely warm period during the LIA. In northern France in 1788, after an unusually bad winter, May, June, and July were excessively hot, which caused the grain to shrivel. On July 13, just at harvest time, a severe hailstorm (which typically occurs when there is very cold air aloft) destroyed what little crops were left. From that bad harvest of 1788 came the bread riots of 1789 which led to Marie Antoinette's alleged remark "Let them eat cake," and the storming of the Bastille.


Art and Literature
Writers and artists were also influenced by the great change in climate. In 1816, "the year without a summer," many Europeans spent their summers around the fire. Mary Shelley was inspired to write Frankenstein, and Polidori, The Vampire. Both authors, together with Byron and Percy Shelley, were in Switzerland, near Lake Geneva where Byron said "We will each write a ghost story." Percy Shelley also referred to a glacier in his poem "Mont Blanc" when he wrote "…and wall impregnable of beaming ice. The race of man flies far in dread; his work and dwelling vanish…"

Neuberger (1970) studied more than 12,000 paintings in 41 art museums in the United States and eight European countries to test his hypothesis that paintings would accurately reveal the climate record. These paintings covered the period from 1400 to 1967. He categorized the blueness of the sky into a three-step scale consisting of pale blue, medium blue, and deep blue. Cloudiness was estimated according to the U.S. airways code: clear (less than 10 percent coverage), scattered (10 to 50 percent), broken (60 to 90 percent), and overcast (more than 90 percent cloud coverage.) In addition, the types of clouds were observed according to four families: high, middle, low, and convective (vertically-developed) clouds. Neuberger separated his data into three epochs. According to the data in Fig. 19 below, during the second epoch when the LIA was at its peak, cloudiness and darkness prevailed.



Figure 19: Epochal changes in various painting features. (Source: Neuberger, 1970)
Neuberger suggests that the similarities between the second and third epochs have more to do with a stylistic change in the third epoch to impressionism which produced hazy atmospheres and also to an increase in industrial pollution.


Frequency of Storms
Fig. 20 shows the number of reported severe sea floods per century in the North Sea region.



Figure 20: Number of reported sea floods per century in the North Sea region. (Source: Lamb, 1995)
During the LIA, there was a high frequency of storms. As the cooler air began to move southward, the polar jet stream strengthened and followed, which directed a higher number of storms into the region. At least four sea floods of the Dutch and German coasts in the thirteenth century were reported to have caused the loss of around 100,000 lives. Sea level was likely increased by the long-term ice melt during the MWP which compounded the flooding. Storms that caused greater than 100,000 deaths were also reported in 1421, 1446, and 1570. Additionally, large hailstorms that wiped out farmland and killed great numbers of livestock occurred over much of Europe due to the very cold air aloft during the warmer months. Due to severe erosion of coastline and high winds, great sand storms developed which destroyed farmlands and reshaped coastal land regions. Impact of Glaciers

During the post-MWP cooling of the climate, glaciers in many parts of Europe began to advance. Glaciers negatively influenced almost every aspect of life for those unfortunate enough to be living in their path. Glacial advances throughout Europe destroyed farmland and caused massive flooding. On many occasions bishops and priests were called to bless the fields and to pray that the ice stopped grinding forward (Bryson, 1977.) Various tax records show glaciers over the years destroying whole towns caught in their path. A few major advances, as noted by Ladurie (1971), appear below:


1595: Gietroz (Switzerland) glacier advances, dammed Dranse River, and caused flooding of Bagne with 70 deaths.
1600-10: Advances by Chamonix (France) glaciers cause massive floods which destroyed three villages and severely damaged a fourth. One village had stood since the 1200's.
1670-80's: Maximum historical advances by glaciers in eastern Alps. Noticeable decline of human population by this time in areas close to glaciers, whereas population elsewhere in Europe had risen.
1695-1709: Iceland glaciers advance dramatically, destroying farms.
1710-1735: A glacier in Norway was advancing at a rate of 100 m per year for 25 years.
1748-50: Norwegian glaciers achieved their historical maximum LIA positions.


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Determining the Climate Record
Possible Causes for Climate Change
Vikings During the Medieval Warm Period
The End of the Vikings in Greenland
Decline of the Vikings in Iceland
Conclusion
Works Cited
Home

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Scott A. Mandia
Professor - Physical Sciences
T-206 Smithtown Sciences Bldg.
S.C.C.C.
533 College Rd.
Selden, NY 11784
(631) 451-4104
mandias@sunysuffolk.edu
http://www2.sunysuffolk.edu/mandias/

[Jayhawk]

Originally Posted by MG

Water displacement increase from Samoan swimmers. The USA has opened up, like, 100 McDonalds on that tiny island. Have you seen the size of those people now?

You may be on to something! That makes more sense than most of the mumbo-jumbo I've seen relating to melting ice caps and the like...

If you fill a large glass w/ ice and water and let it sit the ice will melt, but I have yet to see the glass overflow.

[tyro]

Originally Posted by Jayhawk

Why do you think the water is rising?

People aren't drinking as much of it as they used too.

[Brian_I.]

Originally Posted by Jayhawk

Why do you think the water is rising?

Not sure but I'm thinking it has something to do with the changes in the climate within the last 10 years.

Originally Posted by MG

Water displacement increase from Samoan swimmers. The USA has opened up, like, 100 McDonalds on that tiny island. Have you seen the size of those people now?

Hahaha, okay I'll give you that the recent opening of fast food restaurants has probably not had the best impact on the health of the Samoan people that eat at those places. But the truth is, most people can't afford to eat at those places and still have to work very hard to make a living. Contrary to the common perception of Samoan people, most of the ones who actually live in the islands are in very good shape physically.

I give you credit on the theory though...lol.

[Brian_I.]

Originally Posted by Jayhawk

You may be on to something! That makes more sense than most of the mumbo-jumbo I've seen relating to melting ice caps and the like...

If you fill a large glass w/ ice and water and let it sit the ice will melt, but I have yet to see the glass overflow.

It's the ice on the land or above sea level that is melting into the ocean that is causing the problem. It's like taking your glass of ice and water example and putting a few extra cubes on top of the full glass. Once those extra cubes melt, the glass with overflow.

[LRM1]

Originally Posted by Jayhawk

It is a myth, IMO. Little or no agreement on when it started or stopped and virtually no agreement on what geography was even affected.

A myth? Famine, tree rings aren't mythical-it's a scientific fact - moresoe becasue unlike "global warming" which is a projection, there is in fact physyical evidence of it's existence.

[Spartan]

Originally Posted by Samoan_Ridah

In Samoa, the people live mostly on the outskirts of the island which is basically on the waterfront. It's amazing to see how fast the water level is rising there. I was there in 1981, 1996, 2003 and then in 2007 and the changes are drastic. The main road goes all the way around the island right along the ocean in most parts and now the waves sometimes crash onto the road while you're driving. There are places where there used to be beautiful beaches and now are just a few feet of sand and then water.

I'm almost certain that the country will be wiped out within the next 50 years or so at the current rate.

What does this have to do with humans?

From where I am typing this post, there use to be an ice sheet a mile thick a little before the Egyptian civilization.

The issue is NOT if climate can change, it has for billions of years and FAR more radically then what we have now. The issue is...are humans causing it?

The ENTIRE premise of "human caused" lays on CO2 production and it's theoretical "greenhouse" effects. I have read more then I should about the subject and here is what makes the entire thing fall apart. I had a conversation with a geoligist about ONE and only ONE subject. My question to him was, "can we tell if CO2 is an effect or a cause". His answer was that there is NO WAY we can tell the temperture in relations to the ice core samples. None, ZERO. If we go back 5 thousand years, all we can do is estimate what the temperture was but there is no way in hell to know if it was going up or down in elation to the the atmospheric CO2 content. So ANY claim that CO2 causes global warming is utterly unproven.

Then, a week ago I was looking for some software on the net and here is what I found by accident. Please note that the graph andinformation is the SAME one that Al Gore used to make his movie.

Here is that post.....


~~~~~~~~

I was looking for a little program to monitor my cpu temperture and all of a sudden I came across this.

I have argued long and hard within these pages that there is no way to know if CO increases preceed or follow temperture changes. Lo and behold, confirmed by people who actually did the core sampling even though they are trying to be as biased as they can be without looking stupid. Also notice the date of the article and the articles heavy "enviromental" bias ("Earth Day"). This was BEFORE the craze about global warming took off and how the ice core samples "prove beyond a doubt" global warming is caused by human activity.

This is the same kind of graph that Al Gore stood in front and declared all of us as climate criminals. The ONLY thing it proved was that Al Gore is a sensationalist and his movie is nothing more then a big lie.

The dabate is not over, in fact, the "human cause of global warming" bullsh!t is getting exposed...and it stinks.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


http://www.daviesand.com/Choices/Pre...ning/New_Data/


~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Climate Change: New Antarctic Ice Core Data
The information in this web page was researched on Earth Day, 2000.
This page was last updated on May 30, 2000.

In June of 1999 the latest ice core data from the Vostok site in Antarctica were published by Petit et al in the British journal Nature. These new data extended the historical record of temperature variations and atmospheric concentrations of CO2, methane and other greenhouse trace gases (GTG) back to 420,000 years before present (BP). The ice cores were drilled to over 3,600 meters. This is just over 2.2 miles deep. These new data double the length of the historical record.

The main significance of the new data lies in the high correlation between GTG concentrations and temperature variations over 420,000 years and through four glacial cycles. However, because of the difficulty in precisely dating the air and water (ice) samples, it is still unknown whether GTG concentration increases precede and cause temperature increases, or vice versa--or whether they increase synchronously. It's also unknown how much of the historical temperature changes have been due to GTGs, and how much has been due to orbital forcing, ie, increases in solar radiation, or perhaps long-term shifts in ocean circulation. (Try as they might with their bias, their data show that they can NOT lie about the ambiquity of their own data.)

Whether the ultimate cause of temperature increase is excess CO2, or a different orbit, or some other factor probably doesn't matter much. (Sure it does when politicians are trying to rip you a new one in taxes) It could have been one or the other, or different combinations of factors at different times in the past. The effect is still the same. Nevertheless, the scientific consensus is that GTGs account for at least half of temperature increases, and that they strongly amplify the effects of small increases in solar radiation due to orbital forcing. (Theory but NO proof whatsoever.)

The graph below includes data from the Nature paper, plus data from other studies referenced below. Notice how CO2 concentration rises vertically at the end of the time series. The increase appears vertical because of the large time scale, but it actually occurs over the past 150 years, which corresponds to the age of fossil fuels (the modern industrial age). Notice too that there hasn't been a corresponding increase in temperature during this time period. This is probably due to the ability of the oceans to function as a heat sink, and thereby delay the increase in atmospheric temperatures. However, there are recent indications that the oceans are now warming, which will reduce their ability to act as a heat sink.


Note on graph presentation: The heavier temperature lines 160,000 BP to present reflect more data points for this time period, not necessarily greater temperature variability.

Other interesting patterns in the data include the extreme increases and decreases in temperature preceding and following the interglacial phases (the five high temperature phases in the graph). Some possible reasons for this pattern are explained in the research papers referenced below. In particular, positive feedback mechanisms are instrumental in rapid temperature increases. In any case, the current interglacial period is the longest on record. The current interglacial is also unique in that maximum temperatures have not increased above +2C relative to the mid-20th century benchmark (0C) for very long. It would appear that the +2C threshhold must be exceeded for some period of time to initiate a new glacial phase. (Glacial phase, code word for "freazing your ass off". Give the enviromental nuts time to "prove" that humans caused this too.) Or perhaps the threshold is +1C, but for a longer period of time. The present mean temperature is about +.8C. Recent peak temperatures have been in the +1.4C to +1.6C range. See the Data 4 graph on the next page.

Paleoclimatologists theorize that interglacial periods come to an end when polar ice caps melt rapidly (due to high atmospheric temperatures) and increase the amount of fresh water in the sub-polar oceans, thereby altering the thermohaline circulation patterns which govern global climate. The thermohaline "conveyor belts" essentially shut down and stop moving warm water and air away from the equator toward the poles. The net result is colder water and air temperatures. These colder temperatures deepen and continue despite high GTG concentrations left over from the previous interglacial phases.

Given all the new ice core data, what changes can we anticipate for our climate? If CO2 has increased over the past 150 years as much as it normally increases over thousands of years leading up to an interglacial phase (about 80 ppmv), then we could expect as much as a corresponding 10-12C increase in temperature. But if half the historical temperature increases have been due to orbital forcing and other factors, then we should expect an increase of "only" about 5-6C, or 9-11F. (Notice how they make a statement but because they are so uncertain, they rebut their own conclusions.)

Most computer models don't predict either of these magnitudes of temperature change for the new century. They typically cite evidence indicating that overall global temperatures have not changed as much as polar temperatures, where the ice cores were taken, and that increases of only 2-3C should be anticipated. Unfortunately, new evidence from high-elevation tropical ice cores indicates that this is not really the case. The latest data show that the amplitude of sub-polar temperature changes has been in the range of 8-12C, which is not all that different from the 10-12C found at the poles.

Thus we seem to be headed for some very large climate changes. Temperatures could increase rapidly, and then decrease just as rapidly--as they have repeatedly over the past 420,000 years. (Gee, climate changes, what a SUPRISE!) Another possibility is that there will be so much GTGs in the atmosphere that they will actually override historical patterns of thermohaline circulation and climate change. It's noteworthy in this context that the current atmospheric methane level is about 230% of its pre-industrial maximum (contrasted with CO2 being about 130% of its pre-industrial maximum). For closer looks at the ice core data for the 18,000 year, 200 year, and 50 year time frames, go to the next page.(Oh wait, does this mean that CO2 is GOOD for us because it will cause more STABILITY in climate change? Say it isn't so! :)

.....

[Spartan]

Originally Posted by LRM1

A myth? Famine, tree rings aren't mythical-it's a scientific fact - moresoe becasue unlike "global warming" which is a projection, there is in fact physyical evidence of it's existence.

Tree rings are affected by local weather phenomena and in no way give a global weather picture.

[LRM1]

Originally Posted by Spartan

Tree rings are affected by local weather phenomena and in no way give a global weather picture.

So what's your take-it was after all called the "European little Ice Age"

BTW that's a question, not sarcasm.

[bltserv]

Dude

Does this mean California`s pot crop is not going to be as good this summer.
I better call Arnold and complain.

Its all that toxic trash burning on your side of the planet. We recycle here
on our side.

[MG]

Originally Posted by Samoan_Ridah

It's the ice on the land or above sea level that is melting into the ocean that is causing the problem. It's like taking your glass of ice and water example and putting a few extra cubes on top of the full glass. Once those extra cubes melt, the glass with overflow.

Ice on the land is rather inconsequential amount It would flood the lakes and rivers first and I don't see anyone on the Mississippi or Danube moving house yet. Ice that floats "above the sea level" is still displacing water equal to its own weight, so its affect on surface level is constant regardless of its state.

[Spartan]

Originally Posted by LRM1

So what's your take-it was after all called the "European little Ice Age"

BTW that's a question, not sarcasm.

My comment was a stand alone comments about tree tings.

One of the argument global warming alarmist use is that tree rings gives us "excellent" snapshot of global tempertures and then they combine it with ice core samples that happend 7,000 miles away. We simply do not have ANY way to resolve global weather past written history other then to "guess" at it or take it over a LONG period of time.

[LRM1]

Originally Posted by bltserv

Dude

Does this mean California`s pot crop is not going to be as good this summer.
I better call Arnold and complain.

Its all that toxic trash burning on your side of the planet. We recycle here
on our side.

You really don't want to start agin do you? Do you want to go down the road where you make yourself look stupid with every post?

[LRM1]

Originally Posted by Spartan

My comment was a stand alone comments about tree tings.

One of the argument global warming alarmist use is that tree rings gives us "excellent" snapshot of global tempertures and then they combine it with ice core samples that happend 7,000 miles away. We simply do not have ANY way to resolve global weather past written history other then to "guess" at it or take it over a LONG period of time.

Again, asking becasue you seem to know more about this than I certainly do. What of all of the records of this "little European Ice age"? Are you saying that's meaningless?

[Spartan]

Originally Posted by MG

Ice on the land is rather inconsequential amount It would flood the lakes and rivers first and I don't see anyone on the Mississippi or Danube moving house yet. Ice that floats "above the sea level" is still displacing water equal to its own weight, so its affect on surface level is constant regardless of its state.

Actually no......

The issue is of the above waterline ice melting and adding to the oceans. There is a massive amount of water in ice form trapped by the poles. Once they melt, there will be a lot of issues.

However.....

It has happened before many times and there were no humans to cause it.

The ONLY thing constant about weather is that it changes. Now, the eco-Nazis want to attach EVERY weather change as a consequence of human action. Suprisingly, the sheep have bought on to this myth. Not so suprisingly, the politicians see where the sheep are heading and want in on it...and their votes.

[MG]

You mean to tell me that all that ice floating IN the ocean is going to melt and RAISE the water level?

Now, I'm not the smartest guy in the world but I'm not the dumbest either. The whole concept of bouyancy and water displacement is pretty straight forward. Plus the fact that Water is the only substance that gets less dense when frozen is a pretty large factor here.

[bltserv]

Originally Posted by LRM1

You really don't want to start agin do you? Do you want to go down the road where you make yourself look stupid with every post?

I got to ship some gear out this afternoon.
You will just go on ranting anyway. You be wasting some mondo time here
my friend. That aint paying the bills....

FYI. Global warming is more controlled by the cycles of the sun we dont yet understand fully. But at the same time we dont need to trash the little blue planet we live on. Some people are happy living in a grey dingy corner of the planet where the environment is not so important to your everyday life.

We dont need Malibu getting underwater now.

[Spartan]

Originally Posted by MG

You mean to tell me that all that ice floating IN the ocean is going to melt and RAISE the water level?

Now, I'm not the smartest guy in the world but I'm not the dumbest either. The whole concept of bouyancy and water displacement is pretty straight forward. Plus the fact that Water is the only substance that gets less dense when frozen is a pretty large factor here.

You are missing something. The water we are talking about currently stand ABOVE the ocean levels locked up in the ice caps.

[LRM1]

Originally Posted by bltserv

We dont need Malibu getting underwater now.

It will anyway so what's your point?

The "toxic dump in the gray part of the world" may not be so pretty to you, but at least it's stable. No raging fires, earthquakes, landslides, mud slides, sinkholes, freeway shootings - The occasional snow storm-which is actually quite stunning in it's beauty and gets us some days off

Like I said. If people don't think the way you do - they wrong. Period.