Why does everyone hate "socialist" healthcare here?

[MTI]

I confess that the information I posted is not based on anecdotal storytelling, which apparently is the gold standard among some of the intellectuals here. I'm sorry.

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[LRM1]

Originally Posted by MTI

I confess that the information I posted is not based on anecdotal storytelling, which apparently is the gold standard among some of the intellectuals here. I'm sorry.

You're right, it's not "anecdotal storytelling" it's pure bullsh!t. 2002? Activists as a source? Happy with their family doctor?

You call that information?

[MTI]

Interesting that there's criticism of the dates of the surveys, yet no anti-socialistic healthcare system proponent has provided data supporting their position that the majority of Canadians hate their healthcare systems, let alone want to adopt the current US model.

If 2002 is too far back how about 2003 Gallup Poll results?

In all three countries (US, Canada, UK), there is great variation of opinion within the population on both the quality of medical care and the availability of affordable healthcare. It is a testament to national health systems that people in Canada and Great Britain are significantly more satisfied with availability of affordable healthcare than their American counterparts are.

Then there's Health Canada's 2005 Report on Patient Satisfaction

In 2005, 85% of Canadians who received health care services were very or somewhat satisfied with the services they received. This percentage remained stable between 2000 and 2005.

September 2009, Might be Too New to Be Considered Factual

While delays do occur for non-emergency procedures, data indicate that Canada’s system of universal health coverage provides care as good as in the U.S., at a cost 47 percent less for each person.


Fifty-four percent of chronically ill Americans reported skipping a test or treatment, neglecting to go to a doctor when sick, or failing to fill a prescription because of the cost, according to a 2008 survey by the Commonwealth Fund, a foundation that focuses on health care, and pollster Harris Interactive. That was more than twice the number in Canada, data from those New York-based groups showed.

So, how much do most Canadians hate their healthcare system? Still waiting for those facts and figures.

[Yacht Master]

Originally Posted by MTI

So, how much do most Canadians hate their health care system?

They don't know good health care, so how could they asses their degree of hatred?
If socialized medicine was better we would have had it years ago. It is just another form of welfare, and the producers here don't want to carry the slackers, plain and simple.

[MTI]

Originally Posted by Yacht Master

They don't know good health care, so how could they asses their degree of hatred?
If socialized medicine was better we would have had it years ago. It is just another form of welfare, and the producers here don't want to carry the slackers, plane and simple.

Again, opinions are inexpensive and easy to come by since they are freely distrubuted by cable news networks . . . got any studies or stats?

[mleskovar]

Originally Posted by MTI

...So, how much do most Canadians hate their healthcare system? ....

Compared to what? How would they know? Private health care is illegal....ILLEGAL....in Canada. What does that tell you?

[MTI]

Originally Posted by mleskovar

Compared to what? How would they know? Private health care is illegal....ILLEGAL....in Canada. What does that tell you?

Yes, since 1962, Canadian death panels have been systematically killing their citizens by making services unavailable. Canadians have also been under house arrest, not free to leave their nation and experience other cultures, poor sods, having to drink milk from bags . . . another horror of socialism . . .

Doesn't take much of a stick poke to really draw the ire of the party not in power here . . .

Oh well, another expired equine beaten up again.

[LRM1]

Originally Posted by MTI

Interesting that there's criticism of the dates of the surveys, yet no anti-socialistic healthcare system proponent has provided data supporting their position that the majority of Canadians hate their healthcare systems, let alone want to adopt the current US model.

If 2002 is too far back how about 2003 Gallup Poll results?

In all three countries (US, Canada, UK), there is great variation of opinion within the population on both the quality of medical care and the availability of affordable healthcare. It is a testament to national health systems that people in Canada and Great Britain are significantly more satisfied with availability of affordable healthcare than their American counterparts are.

Then there's Health Canada's 2005 Report on Patient Satisfaction

In 2005, 85% of Canadians who received health care services were very or somewhat satisfied with the services they received. This percentage remained stable between 2000 and 2005.

September 2009, Might be Too New to Be Considered Factual

While delays do occur for non-emergency procedures, data indicate that Canada’s system of universal health coverage provides care as good as in the U.S., at a cost 47 percent less for each person.


Fifty-four percent of chronically ill Americans reported skipping a test or treatment, neglecting to go to a doctor when sick, or failing to fill a prescription because of the cost, according to a 2008 survey by the Commonwealth Fund, a foundation that focuses on health care, and pollster Harris Interactive. That was more than twice the number in Canada, data from those New York-based groups showed.

So, how much do most Canadians hate their healthcare system? Still waiting for those facts and figures.

Oh yeah, 2003 instead of 2002. MUCH more useful and timely data

Hmmm, lets see...

http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2007/...ealthcare.html

However, the report highlights that access to family doctors and emergency rooms has been falling consistently since 2003.
Kind of ironic considering you seem to like 2003 and prior studies of satisfaction.

"There is a lot of concern about access to care," said McMillan. "We need more doctors, we need more nurses, we need more health-care providers.

"Wait times are really a symptom of lack of capacity and the chief lack of capacity that we have is human and professional."

Access to specialists and diagnostic tests were two categories that generated poor scores. Twenty-one per cent of Canadians surveyed gave access to medical specialists an F, and 19 per cent gave the same grade for access to modern diagnostic equipment, such as MRI or CT scans.

Twenty-one per cent awarded an F for access to health-care services on evenings and weekends and 16 per cent awarded an F for access to mental health-care services.

Overall, the prognosis isn't very positive, the report finds. The proportion of Canadians surveyed who believe health-care services will either get much or somewhat better in the next two to three years has declined to 49 per cent — a sharp drop from 56 per cent in 2006.

That seems pretty CLEAR. It doesn't get into liking Dr Jones, but rather it delves into issues that MATTER - like ACCESS to care. Even though this is a survey about "satisfaction" which is of course opinion, it also talks about why - lack of access, lack of access to specialists, lack of access to equipment. All things that we don't have issues with here.

Even as far back as 2004, the CDC did a study and found (shockingly) that Americans are more satisfied.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/04...ointsurvey.htm

And here's an interesting little tidbit in the report;

Among those with an unmet need, Americans were more likely to identify cost as the primary barrier to health care (53 percent of unmet needs cases), while Canadians cited waiting for care as the primary barrier (32 percent of cases)

Hmmm. Translation: Cost - yes it's a barrier BUT you can get care. YOU decide when to get that care. Even if you (sadly) have to go into debt, YOU are the decision maker. IN Canada, no matter how wealthy it seems THEY (the system, not the patient)decide when you get the care.

So let's recap. More Americans are happy with our insurance than Canadians are. When we need it, or even want it, we can get it immediately whether it be a heart attack or hemorroids, and a MAJORITY of AMericans 85% Are covered and are happy. But because YOU Thanks that's bad, we all now should pay more, for a system that won't provide the service that we already get, and we will get PENALIZED, possibly PUT IN JAIL if we choose NOT to take the insurance. With all that satisfaction you have to wonder why there is a major lawsuit in Canada that would force a decision to ALLOW private care, which is currently ILLEGAL.

This is good for America why?????

Wait, I know, because you and the other lefty loons think that we're uncivilized, uncaring, and too dumb to take care of ourselves, so you need to do that for us.

If Canadians are so happy with their insurance, and you agree, I am sure they would welcome you with open arms.

[LRM1]

Originally Posted by MTI

Yes, since 1962, Canadian death panels have been systematically killing their citizens by making services unavailable. Canadians have also been under house arrest, not free to leave their nation and experience other cultures, poor sods, having to drink milk from bags . . . another horror of socialism . . .

Guess we haven't read the Senate healthcare proposal, the one that forces at least a $1,900 added cost per individual and if you don't want the healthcare you could be hit with fines of up to $25,000 and possibly jail time. Do you call this a "Benefit of Socialism"?

Originally Posted by MTI

Doesn't take much of a stick poke to really draw the ire of the party not in power here . . .

Oh well, another expired equine beaten up again.

Yeah, because you know, you weren't the daily poster of torture stories, "war atrocities" and anti Bush venom here for the last couple of years.

Oh well, another hypocrite outed....

[mleskovar]

Originally Posted by MTI

...Canadians have also been under house arrest, not free to leave their nation and experience other cultures....

So Canadians go on holiday to other countries to check out their health care systems? Is that what you're saying? Without mandatory providers of health care their system would collapse. Once again, what do they have to compare it to? If you took a poll of all the non automobile owners in East Germany for the post war period up until the collapse of the wall and asked them "would you be happy with owning a Trabant?" you would get a 100% 'yes' response.

[LRM1]

Originally Posted by mleskovar

So Canadians go on holiday to other countries to check out their health care systems? Is that what you're saying? Without mandatory providers of health care their system would collapse. Once again, what do they have to compare it to? If you took a poll of all the non automobile owners in East Germany for the post war period up until the collapse of the wall and asked them "would you be happy with owning a Trabant?" you would get a 100% 'yes' response.

MTI loves to use exaggerated and ridiculous claims to illustrate that he thinks we all use exaggerated and ridiculous claims.

It's funny though how no one on the left (except the fat man with the camera) seems to be bringing up Cuba's healthcare system into this debate as it's one of the most successful in the world. Everyone's covered, all have fantastic care when they need it, it's all FREE, their doctors are among the worlds most educated - you simply cannot beat their healthcare system.

There is that little thing about the people not being able to eat, dress, travel freely, read, own anything, but that's just a minor inconvenience on the road to equality!

[Mister Brenton]

Originally Posted by LRM1

MTI loves to use exaggerated and ridiculous claims to illustrate that he thinks we all use exaggerated and ridiculous claims.

It's funny though how no one on the left (except the fat man with the camera) seems to be bringing up Cuba's healthcare system into this debate as it's one of the most successful in the world. Everyone's covered, all have fantastic care when they need it, it's all FREE, their doctors are among the worlds most educated - you simply cannot beat their healthcare system.

There is that little thing about the people not being able to eat, dress, travel freely, read, own anything, but that's just a minor inconvenience on the road to equality!

Would you trade to get free care in return for having to drive a '57 Chevy?

No,no, a really beat up Chevy.

[LRM1]

Originally Posted by Mister Brenton

Would you trade to get free care in return for having to drive a '57 Chevy?

No,no, a really beat up Chevy.

Maybe, as long as it's painted authentically Cuban with household acrylic and a sponge.

I just watched a documentary called "YankTanks" about how they keep those things running. Interesting to say the least.

[MTI]

Excellent, it took less than a day to conclude, via studies and reports, that neither the American or Canadian system is wholly good or wholly bad. Now, if each side would merely state that, instead of making up disgruntled citizens, we'd have more important things to discuss.

[LRM1]

Originally Posted by MTI

Excellent, it took less than a day to conclude, via studies and reports, that neither the American or Canadian system is wholly good or wholly bad. Now, if each side would merely state that, instead of making up disgruntled citizens, we'd have more important things to discuss.

"Making up"? I guess I'll have to tell all the Canadians I know they're liars because they fall in the 70% (in your own study) that don't grade the Canadian system at least a "B".

The only thing concluded here is that you are very selective with your (old) data and that as usual, your underlying argument is riddled with holes.

[Kaz]

Originally Posted by MTI

Because we're American, land of the free and home of the brave. We prefer to pay more for mediocre results; it's our god given, hard fought right to choose which doctor we're not going to see until the chest and shooting pains down our left arm forces us to seek care . . . it's patriotic gosh darn it, nobody is going to take away our American way of dying.

The US healthcare system is the greatest healthcare system on the face of the planet. I've put 'Canad' in bold so the word Canada/Candadian is highlighted:


______________

-Breast cancer mortality is 52% higher in Germany than in the United States

-88% higher in the United Kingdom

-Prostate cancer mortality is 604% higher in the U.K. and 457% higher in Norway.

-The mortality rate for colorectal cancer among British men and women is about 40% higher.

-Breast cancer mortality is 9% higher

-Prostate cancer is 184% higher

-Colon cancer mortality among men is about 10% higher than in the United States

-56% of Americans are taking statins, which reduce cholesterol and protect against heart disease, only 36% of the Dutch, 29% of the Swiss, 26% of Germans, 23% of Britons and 17% of Italians receive them.

-89% of middle-aged American women have had a mammogram, compared to 72% less than three-fourths of Canadians

-96% of American women have had a pap smear, compared to less than 90% of Canadians.

-50% of American men have had a PSA test, compared to less than 16% Canadians

-30% of Americans have had a colonoscopy, compared to 5% of Canadians

-Twice as many American seniors with below-median incomes self-report "excellent" health compared to Canadian seniors (11.7% versus 5.8%).

-Canadian young adults with below-median incomes are 20% more likely than lower income Americans to describe their health as "fair or poor

-827,429 people are waiting for some type of procedure in Canada.

-In England, nearly 1.8 million people are waiting for a hospital admission or outpatient treatment

-The United States has 34 CT scanners per million Americans, compared to 12 in Canada and eight in Britain.

-The United States has nearly 27 MRI machines per million compared to about 6 per million in Canada and Britain

-The top five U.S. hospitals conduct more clinical trials than all the hospitals in any other single developed country.

-Since the mid-1970s, the Nobel Prize in medicine or physiology has gone to American residents more often than recipients from all other countries combined.

-In only five of the past 34 years did a scientist living in America not win or share in the prize.

-It leads the way in life saving innovations:

Originally Posted by hkmb

They don't like any word that begins with "socia". They think any such word or phrase - socialised, social club, social drinker, sociable, socialite ... - means Commie. These kneejerk reactions are why MG keeps having to get MRIs on his knees.

That's why you have to call it government run healthcare. Once the word government is in there, there is no more slimy semantic word games.

Originally Posted by MTI

Try a different diet of news and information sources, you might find it enlightening.

Most Canadians Happy With Their Healthcare System

80% of Canadians Happy With Healthcare System

However, 20 per cent of respondents to the telephone survey said they had to wait up to three times longer and that the extra wait caused added stress, anxiety and pain.

Canadians Not Miffed . . .

I'm an escapee of Canadian healthcare after living in Toronto for more than a decade and my experiences and opinions of that healthcare system are not unusual.

if you look at polls done by an organization on healthcare, you can see the results are not very good:

http://www.canadavalueshealth.ca/polls

Are you confident that Canada’s health care system delivers high-quality care?

(Yes) 40 % (No) 60 %




-

http://www.nber.org/papers/w13429

Americans (51.3 percent) are very satisfied with their health care services, compared to only 41.5 percent of Canadians; a lower proportion of Americans are dissatisfied (6.8 percent) than Canadians (8.5 percent).

[hkmb]

Originally Posted by LRM1

LOL.

They're loving this debate right now - nothing would be better for those evil insurance companies than FORCING people to get heal insurance. BAM!!, overnight, they just got 47 million new customers that they can screw-compliments of the well meaning, naive left.

Stop canceling people or not accepting them for pre-existing conditions? You must be joking, they'll accept them at a rate that will have Congress screaming abut the "high cost of health insurance" again in 4 years. Life insurance companies have no issue accepting pre existing conditions, smokers, dangerous jobs, none at all, you just pay twice as much as everyone else so that maybe in 50 years they may have to pay out the $100k out of the $200K they've collected.

Besides, we won't be able to "eat donuts and smoke crack". The Democrats are going to tax the snot out of snack and crack to pay for their grand scheme to make everyone healthy in the US.

I don't know what kind of business you're in, but it seems obvious to me that you have Not a clue how our systems work over here. Government legislation like this makes big companies salivate in anticipation. There are always work arounds and if there is one thing that the Democrats prove every time they are in office is that all those well meaning plans go to **** in less than a year and they create twice the problem they were dealing with in the first place.

You're right.

That's because the reform is so half-arsed. You need total, root-and-branch reform. And you're not going to get it.

[hkmb]

Originally Posted by Kaz

That's why you have to call it government run healthcare. Once the word government is in there, there is no more slimy semantic word games.

Indeed. That one word terrifies people like you, MG and The Unabomber.

[Glasgow Gold]

Originally Posted by Kaz

The US healthcare system is the greatest healthcare system on the face of the planet. I've put 'Canad' in bold so the word Canada/Candadian is highlighted:

So much for MTI's stat that "85% of adult Canadians have a regular doctor." Sort of like saying that most bald people had hair at one point.

[mleskovar]

Originally Posted by Kaz

The US healthcare system is the greatest healthcare system on the face of the planet. I've put 'Canad' in bold so the word Canada/Candadian is highlighted:


______________

-Breast cancer mortality is 52% higher in Germany than in the United States

-88% higher in the United Kingdom

-Prostate cancer mortality is 604% higher in the U.K. and 457% higher in Norway.

-The mortality rate for colorectal cancer among British men and women is about 40% higher.

-Breast cancer mortality is 9% higher

-Prostate cancer is 184% higher

-Colon cancer mortality among men is about 10% higher than in the United States

-56% of Americans are taking statins, which reduce cholesterol and protect against heart disease, only 36% of the Dutch, 29% of the Swiss, 26% of Germans, 23% of Britons and 17% of Italians receive them.

-89% of middle-aged American women have had a mammogram, compared to 72% less than three-fourths of Canadians

-96% of American women have had a pap smear, compared to less than 90% of Canadians.

-50% of American men have had a PSA test, compared to less than 16% Canadians

-30% of Americans have had a colonoscopy, compared to 5% of Canadians

-Twice as many American seniors with below-median incomes self-report "excellent" health compared to Canadian seniors (11.7% versus 5.8%).

-Canadian young adults with below-median incomes are 20% more likely than lower income Americans to describe their health as "fair or poor

-827,429 people are waiting for some type of procedure in Canada.

-In England, nearly 1.8 million people are waiting for a hospital admission or outpatient treatment

-The United States has 34 CT scanners per million Americans, compared to 12 in Canada and eight in Britain.

-The United States has nearly 27 MRI machines per million compared to about 6 per million in Canada and Britain

-The top five U.S. hospitals conduct more clinical trials than all the hospitals in any other single developed country.

-Since the mid-1970s, the Nobel Prize in medicine or physiology has gone to American residents more often than recipients from all other countries combined.

-In only five of the past 34 years did a scientist living in America not win or share in the prize.

-It leads the way in life saving innovations:







That's why you have to call it government run healthcare. Once the word government is in there, there is no more slimy semantic word games.





I'm an escapee of Canadian healthcare after living in Toronto for more than a decade and my experiences and opinions of that healthcare system are not unusual.

if you look at polls done by an organization on healthcare, you can see the results are not very good:

http://www.canadavalueshealth.ca/polls

Are you confident that Canada’s health care system delivers high-quality care?

(Yes) 40 % (No) 60 %




-

http://www.nber.org/papers/w13429

Americans (51.3 percent) are very satisfied with their health care services, compared to only 41.5 percent of Canadians; a lower proportion of Americans are dissatisfied (6.8 percent) than Canadians (8.5 percent).

OK, that's unfair. Now you're talking about things that are important One question I would like to see answered by Canadians is "do you feel the extra taxes you pay are worth the quality of health care you receive?"

[MB_Fahrer]

Originally Posted by MTI

Because we're American, land of the free and home of the brave. We prefer to pay more for mediocre results; it's our god given, hard fought right to choose which doctor we're not going to see until the chest and shooting pains down our left arm forces us to seek care . . . it's patriotic gosh darn it, nobody is going to take away our American way of dying.

+1

[revstriker]

Originally Posted by MB_Fahrer

+1

So you agree that doctors in the US give "mediocre" care?

[hkmb]

Originally Posted by revstriker

So you agree that doctors in the US give "mediocre" care?

MTI said "mediocre results". Not "mediocre care".

[mugatu22]

I'm against Obama care for the same reason I'm not a liberal Democrat...I believe *I* know how to spend/save/use my hard earned money better than the government does. Introduce big government into nearly any privatized sector, and watch it implode. Of course there are exceptions. Healthcare isn't one of them.

Canada's system is decent if you're in good health, and scary if you need immediate diagnostic testing or treatment. My wife is Canadian and her family has experienced it first hand. When health issues pop up, people from all over the world come to the USA for specialized treatment, not Canada. True, Americans who cannot afford treatment may go elsewhere (Mexico, Europe) for their treatment, but it's not because the doctors here aren't the best.

I do not care to pay for any more "free" tax-paid healthcare for illegals, jobless and teen-pregnant people than I already do with my tax dollars.

..BTW have any of you heard of the provision in Obama's plan that eliminates care for elderly ill patients who are deemed closer to death than the cost of treatment would justify? That's right...grow old, get sick, and prepare to die on Obama's plan. My question--do you want Obama's bean-counters determining when and where that threshold between treatment & letting you die lies? I certainly do not.

[LRM1]

Originally Posted by Kaz

The US healthcare system is the greatest healthcare system on the face of the planet. I've put 'Canad' in bold so the word Canada/Candadian is highlighted:


______________

-Breast cancer mortality is 52% higher in Germany than in the United States

-88% higher in the United Kingdom

-Prostate cancer mortality is 604% higher in the U.K. and 457% higher in Norway.

-The mortality rate for colorectal cancer among British men and women is about 40% higher.

-Breast cancer mortality is 9% higher

-Prostate cancer is 184% higher

-Colon cancer mortality among men is about 10% higher than in the United States

-56% of Americans are taking statins, which reduce cholesterol and protect against heart disease, only 36% of the Dutch, 29% of the Swiss, 26% of Germans, 23% of Britons and 17% of Italians receive them.

-89% of middle-aged American women have had a mammogram, compared to 72% less than three-fourths of Canadians

-96% of American women have had a pap smear, compared to less than 90% of Canadians.

-50% of American men have had a PSA test, compared to less than 16% Canadians

-30% of Americans have had a colonoscopy, compared to 5% of Canadians

-Twice as many American seniors with below-median incomes self-report "excellent" health compared to Canadian seniors (11.7% versus 5.8%).

-Canadian young adults with below-median incomes are 20% more likely than lower income Americans to describe their health as "fair or poor

-827,429 people are waiting for some type of procedure in Canada.

-In England, nearly 1.8 million people are waiting for a hospital admission or outpatient treatment

-The United States has 34 CT scanners per million Americans, compared to 12 in Canada and eight in Britain.

-The United States has nearly 27 MRI machines per million compared to about 6 per million in Canada and Britain

-The top five U.S. hospitals conduct more clinical trials than all the hospitals in any other single developed country.

-Since the mid-1970s, the Nobel Prize in medicine or physiology has gone to American residents more often than recipients from all other countries combined.

-In only five of the past 34 years did a scientist living in America not win or share in the prize.

-It leads the way in life saving innovations:







That's why you have to call it government run healthcare. Once the word government is in there, there is no more slimy semantic word games.





I'm an escapee of Canadian healthcare after living in Toronto for more than a decade and my experiences and opinions of that healthcare system are not unusual.

if you look at polls done by an organization on healthcare, you can see the results are not very good:

http://www.canadavalueshealth.ca/polls

Are you confident that Canada’s health care system delivers high-quality care?

(Yes) 40 % (No) 60 %




-

http://www.nber.org/papers/w13429

Americans (51.3 percent) are very satisfied with their health care services, compared to only 41.5 percent of Canadians; a lower proportion of Americans are dissatisfied (6.8 percent) than Canadians (8.5 percent).

Wait Kaz, to be fair, MTI's "Data" about people liking their doctors is from 1995, if you're talking about now, well, that's different.