65 ECU UPGRADE- BE AWARE OF FEDOR DEZYN (VADIM)...

[GFEAR]

Originally Posted by Jen_Kenne I'm glad you understood it the second time. MY POINT IS IT STILL DOESNT MAKE SENSE

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[CA_E55]

Originally Posted by rsr911

I have said it before and I will say it again. AMG spent millions of dollars and thousands of hours developing our cars. They did not leave much on the table.

I was at the AMG owners gathering in Atlanta in 06 at the dyno day. Kleeman CLS55 put down the same numbers as a bone stock E55. The Kleeman pkg was $17,000.00. Not good return on investment in my book!

So true, and no car enthusiast wants to hear this - hope for more power springs eternal and lots of money can be made with these dreams....
A few years back I worked peripherally with Porsche Weissach (as well as with AVL and Ricardo) on engine development and got some insight into the different aspects of engine development: Truth is, engine development costs in the hundreds of millions of $$$$ even for low end 4-bangers - of course lots of $$ go into reliability testing, emission and other mundane stuff no tuner is interested in - but the two dimensional world of most tuners is much more effective in selling their products, not in modifying the complex three dimensional maps of modern engine management systems.
Its simply a joke - as the case of the OP aptly shows - to think that some simple code based on some wild guessing will add power to complex engines that work with feed-back loops on ionic combustion monitoring, amongst other exotic stuff, as in the V12TT

[TMC M5]

Originally Posted by CA_E55

So true, and no car enthusiast wants to hear this - hope for more power springs eternal and lots of money can be made with these dreams....
A few years back I worked peripherally with Porsche Weissach (as well as with AVL and Ricardo) on engine development and got some insight into the different aspects of engine development: Truth is, engine development costs in the hundreds of millions of $$$$ even for low end 4-bangers - of course lots of $$ go into reliability testing, emission and other mundane stuff no tuner is interested in - but the two dimensional world of most tuners is much more effective in selling their products, not in modifying the complex three dimensional maps of modern engine management systems.
Its simply a joke - as the case of the OP aptly shows - to think that some simple code based on some wild guessing will add power to complex engines that work with feed-back loops on ionic combustion monitoring, amongst other exotic stuff, as in the V12TT

I guess you are right...forced induction engines like the 55K and V12TT engines can't be made more powerful.... AMG made them as powerful as they can be...

Tom

[CA_E55]

Originally Posted by TMC M5

I guess you are right...forced induction engines like the 55K and V12TT engines can't be made more powerful.... AMG made them as powerful as they can be...

Tom

I am alwyas right - just ask my staff....

Albeit, that is not what I wrote - all I am sying is that hacking the code with the limited resources of the shade tree tuners will yield more trouble than power.
How much power could be gotten by AMG engineers if they had their way? 50%? 100%? probably....

[TMC M5]

Originally Posted by CA_E55

I am alwyas right - just ask my staff....

Albeit, that is not what I wrote - all I am sying is that hacking the code with the limited resources of the shade tree tuners will yield more trouble than power.
How much power could be gotten by AMG engineers if they had their way? 50%? 100%? probably....

Re-read the post that you agreed with...you use the words "hope" and "dreams" in connection with enthusiasts seeking "more power". maybe I am the one...but that suggests that this quest for more power is mythical in nature and not based in reality.

Yes, AMG could easily release more power from these engines with mere keystrokes. There are tuners who have made decent power. However, ECU tuning is particularly more difficult with the V12TT. AMG itself officially has said that they detune the engine's natural torque peak of 885lbs-ft to 738lbs-ft (1,000NM) to help protect the transmission. I remember reading similarly that the engine would produce a peak 700hp if not limited by software.

Tom

[alx]

few pointers

22 psi on 65 tt motor is not stock. stock is 18-19 in real world. if you are seeing 22 in the software - you are not stock.

anything over 500 rwhp stock is very very strong. 530hp is... tuned methinks... btw give me a car and i can make it get 470rwhp or 530rwhp in two consecutive pulls.. put two bags of ice on the intercoolers and same car will make 560+ rwhp... so dont take the rwhp at face value. btw, i've seen two rentech cars and they both made around 540rwhp at around 68 degrees ambient... so...

the 65 motors are not exactly bulletproof as anything hand-build and they exhibit vastly different power levels. yes, some might get 570rwhp with tune only (and some wishful dyno-ing), but most will not.

btw, if you think you do know the history of your car- if you did not buy it brand new- you dont. trust me.

what you assume or know about your car does not add up. so... there is something you dont know. add the fact that two separate sources could not get gains out of your "stock" car and.. draw your conclusions.

my take is that you have a weak car from the factory and you do already have a tune so further software-only optimization results in no increase in power.

alex
few cars

[bigben320e]

Very interesting subject, and some good posts and information here. To the OP, thanks for posting your experience, unfortunately it was a bad one.

I pretty much have abandoned the idea about tuning, I keep hearing these horror stories about tuners. I was interested in the K1 for the NA CLS, but no more. My buddy that did the K4 on his CLS55 says he is getting a huge gain, but I drove his car before and after, to be honest it feels about the same to me.

[Jen_Kenne]

Originally Posted by GFEAR

MY POINT IS IT STILL DOESNT MAKE SENSE

You have my condolences. BTW, shouting does not help make a point, just the opposite. Does that make sense?

[m_berman]

Originally Posted by TMC M5

I guess you are right...forced induction engines like the 55K and V12TT engines can't be made more powerful.... AMG made them as powerful as they can be...

Tom

How do you explain the HP differences between an slk55 and sl55?

Maybe different cams, boost, IC pumps, FP pressures/injector diameters, etc.

Manufacturers always leave some HP on the table to arrive at an engine free of warranty issues by not taken it to the limit. Tuners approach these limits.

[khaz3al]

slk55 is NA, sl55 is supercharged, plain and simple

[GFEAR]

Originally Posted by Jen_Kenne

You have my condolences. BTW, shouting does not help make a point, just the opposite. Does that make sense?

i dont want your condolences, patronize somebody else. JERK OFF!

[TMC M5]

Originally Posted by m_berman

How do you explain the HP differences between an slk55 and sl55?

Maybe different cams, boost, IC pumps, FP pressures/injector diameters, etc.

Manufacturers always leave some HP on the table to arrive at an engine free of warranty issues by not taken it to the limit. Tuners approach these limits.

I was being sarcastic...read my other posts.

Tom

[Marcus Frost]

Busa,

While I don't want to create any more argument, I agree with alx. Your car is not stock, and the fact that Kleemann and FD were not able to increase the power for your car is disappointing, somewhat, but also indication that something is up with your car.

As for Vadim and your refund, Vadim is put in a tough spot. Vadim is not making money on Powerchip tunes, he's just reselling them. Now I have never done any business with Vadim, but I'm a businessman and can understand his plight. He's always been very nice to me as a fellow enthusiast, so that's all I have to go off from him. He finds himself in difficult situations sometimes but they have not ever been because of greed or malice - they are the pains of running a performance shop on your own. If he can't get his money back from PC for your tune, then it would seem to me that your real beef lies with PC. Whether or not Vadim has the money in pocket to shell back out to you is inconsequential. I understand the argument that Vadim should reimburse you, but you make it seem like he's pocketing the money - he's not. He's between a rock and a hard place. A lot of times when you buy wheels from a custom wheel manufacturer they will also give the distributor the middle finger and even though the distributor maybe pocketed 10 or 20 points on the deal, he's left with the customer wanting all his money back and the wheel company not moving an inch.

Trust me, I'm not trying to take sides here... just trying to offer perspective. In the end, Vadim did sell you the product, but I think we need to understand he's a small shop here and coming down on him with the fury that's been unleashed here is a bit harsh given that he's probably not made any money here and the truth is PC are the guys who really have your money and really haven't given you what you've asked for.

Just my $.02

-m

[GFEAR]

Originally Posted by Marcus Frost

Busa,

While I don't want to create any more argument, I agree with alx. Your car is not stock, and the fact that Kleemann and FD were not able to increase the power for your car is disappointing, somewhat, but also indication that something is up with your car.

As for Vadim and your refund, Vadim is put in a tough spot. Vadim is not making money on Powerchip tunes, he's just reselling them. Now I have never done any business with Vadim, but I'm a businessman and can understand his plight. He's always been very nice to me as a fellow enthusiast, so that's all I have to go off from him. He finds himself in difficult situations sometimes but they have not ever been because of greed or malice - they are the pains of running a performance shop on your own. If he can't get his money back from PC for your tune, then it would seem to me that your real beef lies with PC. Whether or not Vadim has the money in pocket to shell back out to you is inconsequential. I understand the argument that Vadim should reimburse you, but you make it seem like he's pocketing the money - he's not. He's between a rock and a hard place. A lot of times when you buy wheels from a custom wheel manufacturer they will also give the distributor the middle finger and even though the distributor maybe pocketed 10 or 20 points on the deal, he's left with the customer wanting all his money back and the wheel company not moving an inch.

Trust me, I'm not trying to take sides here... just trying to offer perspective. In the end, Vadim did sell you the product, but I think we need to understand he's a small shop here and coming down on him with the fury that's been unleashed here is a bit harsh given that he's probably not made any money here and the truth is PC are the guys who really have your money and really haven't given you what you've asked for.

Just my $.02

-m

Whoa there. what do you mean he isnt making any money, he buys them, at a discount, marks them up for a profit and re-sells them to the customer? you go after the guy you paid, and he goes back after the guy he paid and so on and so on till the it gets to the manufacturer. he gets his money back from vadim, who in turn gets his money back from PC. whats so hard to understand?

when one of my customers has a problem with a part and needs a refund for any reason, i give him his money back, take the product back and return it to the manufaturer for credit from them. fact is you take care of your customer, no matter what.

[TMC M5]

Originally Posted by Marcus Frost

Busa,

While I don't want to create any more argument, I agree with alx. Your car is not stock, and the fact that Kleemann and FD were not able to increase the power for your car is disappointing, somewhat, but also indication that something is up with your car.

As for Vadim and your refund, Vadim is put in a tough spot. Vadim is not making money on Powerchip tunes, he's just reselling them. Now I have never done any business with Vadim, but I'm a businessman and can understand his plight. He's always been very nice to me as a fellow enthusiast, so that's all I have to go off from him. He finds himself in difficult situations sometimes but they have not ever been because of greed or malice - they are the pains of running a performance shop on your own. If he can't get his money back from PC for your tune, then it would seem to me that your real beef lies with PC. Whether or not Vadim has the money in pocket to shell back out to you is inconsequential. I understand the argument that Vadim should reimburse you, but you make it seem like he's pocketing the money - he's not. He's between a rock and a hard place. A lot of times when you buy wheels from a custom wheel manufacturer they will also give the distributor the middle finger and even though the distributor maybe pocketed 10 or 20 points on the deal, he's left with the customer wanting all his money back and the wheel company not moving an inch.

Trust me, I'm not trying to take sides here... just trying to offer perspective. In the end, Vadim did sell you the product, but I think we need to understand he's a small shop here and coming down on him with the fury that's been unleashed here is a bit harsh given that he's probably not made any money here and the truth is PC are the guys who really have your money and really haven't given you what you've asked for.

Just my $.02

-m

Marcus:

I am not so sure I agree. If Vadim guarantees a money back refund to customers, then it doesn't matter what PC's policy is and Busa shouldn't have to deal with PC at all. I am not sure what Vadim's refund policy states...

Tom

[Marcus Frost]

Originally Posted by GFEAR

Whoa there. what do you mean he isnt making any money, he buys them, at a discount, marks them up for a profit and re-sells them to the customer? you go after the guy you paid, and he goes back after the guy he paid and so on and so on till the it gets to the manufacturer. he gets his money back from vadim, who in turn gets his money back from PC. whats so hard to understand?

when one of my customers has a problem with a part and needs a refund for any reason, i give him his money back, take the product back and return it to the manufaturer for credit from them. fact is you take care of your customer, no matter what.

GFEAR you are asbolutely right. What I'm telling you is that I know what Vadim buys PC tunes for, and what he sells them for. He's not making much money at all. That doesn't make him totally innocent, I'm just trying to put context here.

Yes, in the greater scheme of things you are right, the customer goes after the distributor, and the distributor goes after the supplier. I understand that perfectly, and said that in my post. However, it's one things for a distributor to give the middle finger to the customer and keep a hefty profit without even talking to the supplier, it's another when the supplier is giving the customer (and, inadvertently, the end customer). I think there are different scenarios and as a community of enthusiasts we owe it to other fellow community members (such as Vadim) to allow context and benefit-of-the-doubt in certain cases to at least be heard, that's all. If this was "I took my Sony TV back to Best Buy and they told me to take a hike cause Sony won't take it back" - we would all ***** at Best Buy and that's typical, and warranted. I just feel that in this case maybe a little sympathy is warranted and maybe an ability for the parties to work it out rather than treating Vadim like he was a Best Buy.

Busa is NOT wrong in being upset, and Busa is totally right in his position, but I think the details here deserve mentioning because there's more than 1 way to look at this situation.

That's all. Not trying to create controversy.

-m

[GFEAR]

PC should get involved and offer vadim his money back and everyone move on like it never happened. the about of bad press they get costs a lot more than a 1k refund to a customer does

[Marcus Frost]

Originally Posted by GFEAR

PC should get involved and offer vadim his money back and everyone move on like it never happened. the about of bad press they get costs a lot more than a 1k refund to a customer does

I agree 110%. That was my point, really.

[nick 55]

I have to agree with Marcus on this one. I am not a business man, however I felt the same way but could not convey those words properly as I typed. I understand completely the position of being the little guy trying to break into a market held by "superpowers" and I know what it's like when you are trying to make everything add up so you can keep the lights on for the month and still make even the highest maintenance client happy. I understand that manufacturers are interested in their bottom line, not always concerned with their dealers. Why do you think dealers are allocated weird cars now, like 09 CLK coupes and SL600s?


Nick

[C63newdude]

Did you buy this car new from day one?. It seems like perhaps it had a previous tune done thus you are you getting the power that you expected because the power is already there. (just my guess)

[bigbodybeeenz]

Vadim is responsible for the refund since he sold the tune and spent "hours" promising gains. OP did not deal with Powerchip. Ever.

Pushing the customer off to his supplier is a very shady move on Vadim's part. To be expected I guess.

[blazeone]

Hey Jason it's Tom, long time no see. When did you get the MB? I just bought an SL600. Shoot me a PM and we'll have to invade one of the car meets.

Sorry to hear about the tuning issues, I've got no help for you. Shaun aka "blown vette". He has a Renntech CLS and experience.

[Oliverk]

Originally Posted by nick 55

I have to agree with Marcus on this one. I am not a business man, however I felt the same way but could not convey those words properly as I typed. I understand completely the position of being the little guy trying to break into a market held by "superpowers" and I know what it's like when you are trying to make everything add up so you can keep the lights on for the month and still make even the highest maintenance client happy. I understand that manufacturers are interested in their bottom line, not always concerned with their dealers. Why do you think dealers are allocated weird cars now, like 09 CLK coupes and SL600s?


Nick

I can't say I agree with either you are Marcus. If you aren't making money or very little on selling tunes, and you are on the hook for a refund, stop selling that product if it hasn't proven to be successful 95% of the time.

If you can't afford a $XXXX refund, your business is not adequately capitalized.

Also, if he already had a tune, wouldn't any of these wonder tuners notice that?

[Sunir]

Looks like Vadim's shop is not the only thing catching on fire...his reputation is getting some heat here as well ... vadim or his associate(s) may like to respond to let us know their side of the story; there's always two sides and who know this may help mitigate the situation...just trying to be diplomatic and help

[nick 55]

I think Busa196 should contact LET/Eurocharged and have them tune his car. I hear they are doing great things in the MB market as of lately.

Nick