Collectors value of the SL55 .. eventually

[chuck z]

It's probably worth mentioning that I own and run the 928 Registry website so when it comes to 928s there isn't too much that I don't know (not as much as Mark Anderson who posted here earlier as he races a 928 and owns 928 International)........ Originally Posted by EXECMALIBU Nice 928 but the 928S4 or the 928GT was the one to have! Not necessarily true. Right now, the 928 that is most sought after is the final series, the GTS; more specifically the 5-speed GTS. For the final year of production there were exactly 77 1995 928 GTSs brought to all of North America and only 30 of those were 5-speeds. Originally Posted by EXECMALIBU The only cars from the late 1970s-2009 that are even close to being collectible or worth more then they sold for new that I can think of (I know there are a few others) are the Ferrari 512 BB boxers and the AMAZING Ford GTs... The BMW Z8 with ultra low miles are close. The 928 is probably not deemed as collectible by most car collectors b/c most car collectors have limited knowledge of the 928 and probably overlook them in favor of the more popular 356s and early 911s. I get inquiries about my 1995 928 GTS 5-speed all the time asking if it's for sale. It's also worth noting that there have been several recent sales of GTS 5-speeds that have topped their original MSRP. Most recently (as in the last couple weeks) a 1995 928 GTS 5-speed sold for $103,500. It had an original MSRP of ~$86k. I sold my 1995 928 GTS 5-speed with 12k miles 2 years ago and when I sold it the price was more than it's $86k MSRP. I bought the car back in March of this year for less but for more than I originally paid for it in September of 2000. There are many (well, many is relative as there were only 406 built for NA in the three model years from 1993-95) tired and worn out 928 GTSs out there that sell for considerably less but, low mileage 5-speed cars are a prized commodity. FWIW, I am working with a collector in Germany right now who is very close to buying Kermit (posted above) and the price is considerably above the original MSRP of $28,728. As a collector, it might be a good time to rethink the 928?

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[EXECMALIBU]

Collector cars do not necessarily have to be low production for them to be collectible... For example any Porsche 356 convert, E-Type Jag or even cars like Mustangs or Caddys can be very collectible.

Think about how many Muscle cars that were built (sometimes up to 30,000+) and even small block cars are getting stupid money.

Obviously any 4 Cam Porsche Carreras, 426 Hemi, 427/Ford or Chevy will bring the most but many other cars with very high production numbers still are very collectible.

Even cheap cars like 70s MGBs with chrome bumpers are worth 4-6X times what they cost new! They built a lot of MGBs!


Sometimes being a low production car actually hurts the value because there was no market for them when new and there still is no market now.
Some models were so rare that no one really knows about them so there is no following (demand)... "This car is very rare they only built 50 of them..."Yeah so its rare and no one wants it!"

There were even Ferraris that had special bodies with only 2-3 ever built, but they are ugly and not worth even close to what a production Ferarri brings.

[Sunir]

Originally Posted by EXECMALIBU

Collector cars do not necessarily have to be low production for them to be collectible... For example any Porsche 356 convert, E-Type Jag or even cars like Mustangs or Caddys can be very collectible.

Think about how many Muscle cars that were built (sometimes up to 30,000+) and even small block cars are getting stupid money.

Obviously any 4 Cam Porsche Carreras, 426 Hemi, 427/Ford or Chevy will bring the most but many other cars with very high production numbers still are very collectible.

Even cheap cars like 70s MGBs with chrome bumpers are worth 4-6X times what they cost new! They built a lot of MGBs!


Sometimes being a low production car actually hurts the value because there was no market for them when new and there still is no market now.
Some models were so rare that no one really knows about them so there is no following (demand)... "This car is very rare they only built 50 of them..."Yeah so its rare and no one wants it!"

There were even Ferraris that had special bodies with only 2-3 ever built, but they are ugly and not worth even close to what a production Ferarri brings.

Very good points Exec...I didn't really see it that way...I was thinking about cars like Hemi Cuda and the like; but you definately bring up some good points

[sound 8]

Originally Posted by TMC M5

First of all, define collector car? Secondly, what value are you expecting to get 20 years from now?

An SL55 is a classic design that will have appeal over the next 20 years.. so yes it will be a "collector car" in that sense. How much will someone be willing to pay to drive such an appealing car twenty years from now...who knows...but I highly doubt that you will see $100K price tags on these...unless the US undergoes hyper-inflation or the car has delivery miles on it (no fun in that).

Take a look at some of the most desirable cars from the late 1980's (a 20 year look-back)... for example $200K AMG Hammers can be found recently for under $70K. There are so many variables that come into play with trying to estimate prices. One of the biggest things is what will performance cars be like 20 years from now? A 2009 E550 will smoke an '87 AMG Hammer and a similar vintage Ferrari Testarossa. The muscle car collectibles from the late 60's and 70's were more collectible because the gas crisis killed high performance cars for the next 15-20 years. If there is a similar crisis in the near future...yeah that could make the SL55 more collectible. If cars keep progressing performance wise...you may see 2023 Mazda Miatas with a better power to weight ratio than a vintage 2003 SL55. The Miata will have a retractable hard top, sequential dual clutch tranny, and all the other nice gadgets we have seen as "exotic" over the last couple of years.

If you are viewing an SL55 as some sort of long-term investment...than you need a reality check. Drive the car and enjoy it....but if you need a financial return on your investment, put your money elsewhere. (IMHO)

Tom

Define the word collectors, if anybody is thinking collector in terms of it being worth a great deal of money, forget it. As Tom said if you want to collect to make money then there are much better things. As far as the SL55 and come to it the SL65 and the SL63 goes, you'll be dead before there worth anything.
They are mass produced and far too many exist. I stored a Cosworth RS500
to make money. 1986 car I paid £19k for, I sold it 10 years ago for 15k, and
it's only worth about 20k now, yet only 500 were made worldwide.
My 1986 Mitsubishi is more collectable, I doubt if there is a handful left, and yet it's worth about 2k.

[RRod]

Originally Posted by EXECMALIBU

The only cars from the late 1970s-2009 that are even close to being collectible or worth more then they sold for new that I can think of (I know there are a few others) are the Ferrari 512 BB boxers and the AMAZING Ford GTs... The BMW Z8 with ultra low miles are close.

Maybe also the 78-81 BMW M1.

Originally Posted by EXECMALIBU

Now everyone wants the latest and greatest model and they just walk away from YESTERDAYS car like it was and old newspaper...

We loved and cherished the 1970s cars when we were young but my son and his buddies are not interested in the cars that were around when they were growing up...

I know, I know ..... today's round-the-clock media blasted Bling culture tends to seduce our kids to try and act and live like celebrities ........ and by inference, drive what celebs drive both on and off screen like the latest high-end exotic cars or restored old 60's Detroit Muscle cars.

Originally Posted by EXECMALIBU

But I will never understand why there is a mint 2009 SL65 with only 5,000 miles offered for $129K at a dealer! The car will sell for less...

Thats a $70K plus $20K Tax/license=$90-95K loss in 6-8 months!

Maybe, just maybe .... it's because a good chunk of the population feels that the new styling of the 2009 SL65 looks like the 2005-2008 beautiful baby's after-birth ..... i.e. "butt ugly." Those are not my own quoted words, but I tend to agreed.

[EXECMALIBU]

At first I did not like the front of the 2009 AMG SLs but now knowing that it is the only year for that body style and also the last year for the R230 body style makes it a lot more interesting!

I love the rear end with the ground effects bumper and the spoiler on the deck... I hate the airscarfe (air-barf) and am not sure about the tuck and roll interior?

If the SL65 is ever going to be a collectible car then the 2009 would probably be the one to have...

[RRod]

Originally Posted by EXECMALIBU

At first I did not like the front of the 2009 AMG SLs but now knowing that it is the only year for that body style and also the last year for the R230 body style makes it a lot more interesting!

I love the rear end with the ground effects bumper and the spoiler on the deck... I hate the airscarfe (air-barf) and am not sure about the tuck and roll interior?

If the SL65 is ever going to be a collectible car then the 2009 would probably be the one to have...

I guess Ugly is the new Beautiful

BTW, I'm not surprised they are killing the looks of the 2009 so quickly

[EXECMALIBU]

Amazingly the 1992-94 Land Rover Defender 90 is still worth almost exactly what they cost new! Drive the car take good care of it and they are still worth $32,000-$34,000 15 years later...

Also my buddy last year wanted a Mini Cooper S and used 2007s were only $2,000 less then a new one.. So he bought a new one...

Some of the Asian cars are probably better investments also. Where you dont take a huge 50% hit in value during the first 2-3 years after you buy it new...

Who ever in a million years would have thought a Hyundai or a Kia would be a much better car to buy from a resale stand point then a Mercedes?

It seems like all of the R230-SLs are still sliding in value not as fast for the 2003-2005 but the prices are not holding... Damn shame!

[RRod]

What really amazes me is that the guys in Stuttgard took a wonderfully beautiful R230 2003-2008 style, then slapped a Chyrsler/Dodge-like botched facelift on the front end for 2009 just in time for Daimler's divorce from Chrysler. Then they kill the R230 for 2010 as if they did not like the results.

Reminds me of friends that dumped their wives after a botched facelift.

What were they thinking at Daimler?

[4ociousE55]

JMHO but here's my list of what I believe are future collector cars.

2002-2005 Ford Thunderbird
2004-2006 Pontiac GTO (preferably 400 hp version)
2008-2009 Ford Shelby GT500KR Mustang
Dodge Viper (later versions)
Corvette ZO6 (current model)
2009 SL65 BS
2003-2004 Ford SVT Lightning pick-up (385 hp version)
BMW Z8
Ford GT

Possible future collectors

2003 BMW M5
2003 BMW 540i automatic/6-speed
BMW M6 hardtop/convertible
2008 CLK63 BS
Nissan GT-R
MB E55 Station Wagon


Not sure but perhaps

Jeep Cherokee Laredo SRT8
Dodge Challenger SRT8
MB R63

These are just a few that come to mind, anybody else care to add to my list?

[EXECMALIBU]

4ociuosE55,

Most cars on your list are not collectible and it does not look like they ever will be... Dame shame!

My point is somewhat proven by the fact that the Viper is now nearly 20 years old (1992) and they keep dropping in value...

The Viper fills all of the criteria for being collectible:

1. Very rare (very low production numbers)
2. Absolutely gorgeous and exotic
3. Convertible
4. Ultra fast and they handle amazing
5. The pinnacle of performance in their day
6. Discontinued Body style (1992-2002)

The Viper was Bob Lutz modern Cobra... But even with all of their undisputed qualifications the early Vipers are not worth 30% of what they cost new.

On ebay there is a 1993 VIPER show car with only 5,000 miles on the clock... The car is currently offered at $25K with no reserve... There are no bids!

As far as the other cars on your list... Maybe the Shelby but if the Viper is not collectible I doubt the Shelby will be...

Now possibly the new ZR-1 might be but the old ZR-1 is sure not...

.

.

[chuck z]

Originally Posted by EXECMALIBU

My point is somewhat proven by the fact that the Viper is now nearly 20 years old (1992) and they keep dropping in value...

The Viper fills all of the criteria for being collectible:

1. Very rare (very low production numbers)
2. Absolutely gorgeous and exotic
3. Convertible
4. Ultra fast and they handle amazing
5. The pinnacle of performance in their day
6. Discontinued Body style (1992-2002)

The Viper was Bob Lutz modern Cobra... But even with all of their undisputed qualifications the early Vipers are not worth 30% of what they cost new.

On ebay there is a 1993 VIPER show car with only 5,000 miles on the clock... The car is currently offered at $25K with no reserve... There are no bids!

.....have you ever seen a car deemed as "collectable" that is still in production? I'm not surprised the Viper is not considered collectable and even though the original body style was only built for a few years in low numbers, the car is still being built?

[4ociousE55]

Originally Posted by EXECMALIBU

4ociuosE55,

Most cars on your list are not collectible and it does not look like they ever will be... Dame shame!

My point is somewhat proven by the fact that the Viper is now nearly 20 years old (1992) and they keep dropping in value...

The Viper fills all of the criteria for being collectible:

1. Very rare (very low production numbers)
2. Absolutely gorgeous and exotic
3. Convertible
4. Ultra fast and they handle amazing
5. The pinnacle of performance in their day
6. Discontinued Body style (1992-2002)

The Viper was Bob Lutz modern Cobra... But even with all of their undisputed qualifications the early Vipers are not worth 30% of what they cost new.

On ebay there is a 1993 VIPER show car with only 5,000 miles on the clock... The car is currently offered at $25K with no reserve... There are no bids!

As far as the other cars on your list... Maybe the Shelby but if the Viper is not collectible I doubt the Shelby will be...

Now possibly the new ZR-1 might be but the old ZR-1 is sure not...

.

.

Good assessment, I was thinking of specifying a late model Viper vs. the early years but since I'm not a Viper fan I wasn't too familiar with the brand. Having previously owned a very early production 90 ZR-1 (#28) I agree that they too are not collectible but perhaps the 2004 might be with only 405 cars produced and last year of production. The new ZR-1 might be a future collector but time and numbers, supply and demand will dictate that market. Good discussion!

[EXECMALIBU]

The new 2003 Viper body style is totally different. At first Viper guys thought the new car looked like a big Toyota S2000 and hated it! The older Viper still never increased in value...

Most collectible cars are still in production in name only but the whole car looks totally different... Mustang, Vette, Charger, Chevelle ,Porsche 911...

So just to name a few where the body style changed and the old body style was instantly collectible even though the car was still in production!...

1. 1967 to 1968 Vette
2. 356 Porsche to 911
3. 1973 Porsche 911 to 1974 911
4. Ferrari Dino to 308 GTS
5. Mercedes 1971 280SL to 1972 350SL
6. Lambo Muira to Tosh
7. 68 Mustang to 69 Mustang
8. 67 E-Type Jag to 68 E-type
9. Rolls Cloud to Rolls Shadow
10. 1974 BMW 3.0CS to 76 3.0CSI
11. 57 Chevy to 58 Chevy

There are a lot more cars that I cant think of at the moment...

[chuck z]

Originally Posted by EXECMALIBU

The new 2003 Viper body style is totally different. At first Viper guys thought the new car looked like a big Toyota S2000 and hated it! The older Viper still never increased in value...

So just to name a few where the body style changed and the old body style was instantly collectible...

1. 1967 to 1968 Vette
2. 356 Porsche to 911
3. 1973 Porsche 911 to 1974 911
4. Ferrari Dino to 308 GTS
5. Mercedes 1971 280SL to 1972 350SL
6. Lambo Muira to Tosh
7. 68 Mustang to 69 Mustang
8. 67 E-Type Jag to 68 E-type
9. Rolls Cloud to Rolls Shadow
10. 1974 BMW 3.0CS to 76 3.0CSI
11. 57 Chevy to 58 Chevy

There are a lot more cars that I cant think of at the moment...

perhaps I wasn't clear. by still being built, I meant still currently in production as the Viper still is.

From you list above:

Only the Corvette (1), 911 (3), SL (5) and Mustang (7) are still in production so by this measurement the Viper could also fit? Were any of them instantly collectible? I'm thinking some of these hi-po examples could be had for cheap not long after they were produced up until a few years ago..... Perhaps the Viper's day will come too?

Too me, picking which is going to be collectible and which is not is a bit like picking stocks.........

[sprins]

Classic ≠ Collectible

R230 SL: Future classic, not collectible

Collectible implies scarcity.

My 2¢

[Marcus Frost]

I am by no means a collector car expert, but one car that is definitely worth honorable mention from the 90s is the 4th generation Toyota Supra Turbo. A '93-'98 6-speed car with low mileage can easily fetch close to new, and for the '97-'98 cars (which saw their MSRP drop originally) their price now would easily surpass their original one.

-m

[RRod]

Would someone please refresh my memory as to why the SL55 with the 030 AMG Performance option has the same SL65 vents just ahead of the front wheel wells? Are these vents for the beefed-up front brakes on both the SL65 and the SL55 w/030?

Also, was there an option on the SL65 for disabling the speed limiter like when you ordered an SL55 w/030?

Thanks.

[EXECMALIBU]

The 030 package was expensive but included the HUGE SL65 front brakes along with the SL65 2 piece 19 inch wheels and the SL65 front bumper with the side vents...

I am not sure if the 030 package includes any extra coolers from the SL65.

I my opinion the brakes on my SL55 were very WEAK for a 4,400 lb car and all SL55s need the big brakes...

[RRod]

Originally Posted by EXECMALIBU

The 030 package was expensive but included the HUGE SL65 front brakes along with the SL65 2 piece 19 inch wheels and the SL65 front bumper with the side vents...

I am not sure if the 030 package includes any extra coolers from the SL65.

I my opinion the brakes on my SL55 were very WEAK for a 4,400 lb car and all SL55s need the big brakes...

Apparently the front side vents on the SL65 (and the SL55 w/030) are actually functional according to this thread:

SL65 vents in front?

Sounds like the SL55 w/030 package gets an extra oil cooler too.

[raunaq23]

We own the "ONLY RED SL55 IN INDIA", a country where cars cost 2.2 times the price after registration and where import of classic vehicles is prohibited! Moreover Left hand drive cars like the SLR are also prohibited! and no SL65s present here too.

In 20 years, the only red SL55 in the country still hmmmm... thats like the only red gullwing in the country speaking in todays terms...

What do you all think? Collector or not?

[sound 8]

Why on earth would it be more collectible because it's in India?

[chuck z]

Originally Posted by raunaq23

We own the "ONLY RED SL55 IN INDIA", a country where cars cost 2.2 times the price after registration and where import of classic vehicles is prohibited! Moreover Left hand drive cars like the SLR are also prohibited! and no SL65s present here too.

In 20 years, the only red SL55 in the country still hmmmm... thats like the only red gullwing in the country speaking in todays terms...

What do you all think? Collector or not?

With the relative ease of locating cars in any part of the world and shipping them to any part of the world; probably not.

[Sunir]

Originally Posted by raunaq23

We own the "ONLY RED SL55 IN INDIA", a country where cars cost 2.2 times the price after registration and where import of classic vehicles is prohibited! Moreover Left hand drive cars like the SLR are also prohibited! and no SL65s present here too.

In 20 years, the only red SL55 in the country still hmmmm... thats like the only red gullwing in the country speaking in todays terms...

What do you all think? Collector or not?

I dunno I saw a couple of new M3s speeding accross the bridge from Delhi to Gurgoung last time I was there ...

Where in India are you?

[RRod]

I mean no disrespect, but there is one thing I've experienced when I bought a used rare car from a developing country.

The concern I would have when buying a rare used car from any part of the developing world, where poor roads and open sewage systems are much more common, is getting the smell of the sewage out of the leather, carpeting, etc. I've been to most developing nations and can not get the smell of open sewage ditches out of my head ..... something that those nice television travel logs can not portray (the sewage odors) when you watch tours of beautiful far away places.