Intake tube system the same CLS55 vs E55 ? Simple mod ... great results!

[jturkel]

PETE for the intake tubes, would it be better to use the exhaust wrap or something like this:http://www.jegs.com/p/Thermo-Tec/The...44853/10002/-1 and for the air boxes, for that adhesive stuff, i see they come in sizes of like 12" x 12" (which isnt very big for the boxes), and 12" x 24", etc...would you just put like one whole strip of the 12x12 or 12x24 (cut to make fit properly) or would you double up on each airbox? i mean, i know it says its heat resistant, but is one layer of that stuff thick enough or provide really enough insulation?

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[Ghostrider]

Originally Posted by jturkel

hey pete

how would this compare to the DEI insulation for the airbox you posted a pic of?

http://www.thermotec.com/adhesive-ba...t-barrier.html

I've used the thermotec before and when applied to the underside of the airbox the heat barrier part seperated from the adhesive backing.

[jturkel]

Originally Posted by Ghostrider

I've used the thermotec before and when applied to the underside of the airbox the heat barrier part seperated from the adhesive backing.

good to know. thanks for the info. what did you use in its place then? or what would you suggest to use in its place to prevent this from occurring?

[str8ridin]

I don't know, 5 degrees is nice, but it seems that since you opened up the flaps, it'll almost be better to take the tubes off completely. By taking off the tubes, the inlet holes will let more fresh air in under the hood thus dropping the under hood temps significantly at speed. Now you will be able to draw cooler air from under the hood rather than heating it up through the hot or even insulated tubes. Not to mention cooling the entire engine because, as it stands, the engine compartment is quite sealed off. However, this will be bad for staging at the track because fresh air won't available until the car is moving. But for highway pulls, this set up could work.


However, because of the insignificant IAT difference between wrapping and not wrapping, it seems as though the tubes are not really the real problem. When you think about it, how much can a hot, 1.5 foot tube really heat fast moving cool air? For it to effectively change the temperature of the air, you must maximize the amount of cold air molecules in contact with warmer static molecules. This can't happen effectively in a tube. Therefore, I think the real problem is actually the filters themselves. Passing cool air through a super-heated filter or apparatus that is designed to touch as many molucules of air as possible is what heats the air. The original design MB has for the intake tubes works, and wrapping them can help a little....but passing the air through hot filters is where we need to focus.

So, getting the filters off the engine may be the only real step we need to do. That being said, I'm betting the VRP Fang set-up or something similiar will yeild the lowest IAT, significantly more than stock or a modified hood.

Just my non-engineering auto enthusiasts opinion.

[shardul]

Originally Posted by str8ridin

I don't know, 5 degrees is nice, but it seems that since you opened up the flaps, it'll almost be better to take the tubes off completely. By taking off the tubes, the inlet holes will let more fresh air in under the hood thus dropping the under hood temps significantly at speed. Now you will be able to draw cooler air from under the hood rather than heating it up through the hot or even insulated tubes. Not to mention cooling the entire engine because, as it stands, the engine compartment is quite sealed off. However, this will be bad for staging at the track because fresh air won't available until the car is moving. But for highway pulls, this set up could work.


However, because of the insignificant IAT difference between wrapping and not wrapping, it seems as though the tubes are not really the real problem. When you think about it, how much can a hot, 1.5 foot tube really heat fast moving cool air? For it to effectively change the temperature of the air, you must maximize the amount of cold air molecules in contact with warmer static molecules. This can't happen efficiently in a tube. Therefore, I think the real problem is actually the filters themselves. Passing cool air through a super-heated filter or apparatus that is designed to touch as many molucules of air as possible is what heats the air. The original design MB has for the intake tubes works, and wrapping them can help a little....but passing the air through hot filters is where we need to focus.

So, getting the filters off the engine may be the only real step we need to do.

Just my non-engineering auto enthusiasts opinion.

Interesting makes sense.
I will data log without the intake tubes and post the results

[str8ridin]

Originally Posted by shardul

Interesting makes sense.
I will data log without the intake tubes and post the results

sneakyneon already did.
IAT data logging Intresting results

My point was that the adjustment of the intake tubes are futile...maybe 5-10 degrees savings depending on the configuration. The signficant IAT drops will be found when the filters are relocated off of the engine and away from the heat.

Again, something like the VRP Fang set-up or something similiar with heat wrapped tubes will yeild the lowest, most signifcant IAT drops.

[Ghostrider]

Originally Posted by jturkel

good to know. thanks for the info. what did you use in its place then? or what would you suggest to use in its place to prevent this from occurring?

I used a gold reflective heat shielding, but covering the tubes won't be enough. You will need to cover the entire airbox, because think about what has the biggest surface area and what's in the closest proximity to the engine.

[jturkel]

Originally Posted by Ghostrider

I used a gold reflective heat shielding, but covering the tubes won't be enough. You will need to cover the entire airbox, because think about what has the biggest surface area and what's in the closest proximity to the engine.

right. i was planning on doing both the airboxes and the tubes.....and may actually now wrap the I/C and lay down some heat shielding stuff on the cylinder V.

so are you saying wrap the ENTIRE airbox? like a gift? lol....or just the bottom and sides?

any chance you have a link to where i can get that stuff? also, is it self-adhesive or how is it kept on the airbox?

thanks

[JustPete]

Originally Posted by str8ridin

I don't know, 5 degrees is nice, but it seems that since you opened up the flaps, it'll almost be better to take the tubes off completely. By taking off the tubes, the inlet holes will let more fresh air in under the hood thus dropping the under hood temps significantly at speed. Now you will be able to draw cooler air from under the hood rather than heating it up through the hot or even insulated tubes. Not to mention cooling the entire engine because, as it stands, the engine compartment is quite sealed off. However, this will be bad for staging at the track because fresh air won't available until the car is moving. But for highway pulls, this set up could work.


However, because of the insignificant IAT difference between wrapping and not wrapping, it seems as though the tubes are not really the real problem. When you think about it, how much can a hot, 1.5 foot tube really heat fast moving cool air? For it to effectively change the temperature of the air, you must maximize the amount of cold air molecules in contact with warmer static molecules. This can't happen effectively in a tube. Therefore, I think the real problem is actually the filters themselves. Passing cool air through a super-heated filter or apparatus that is designed to touch as many molucules of air as possible is what heats the air. The original design MB has for the intake tubes works, and wrapping them can help a little....but passing the air through hot filters is where we need to focus.

So, getting the filters off the engine may be the only real step we need to do. That being said, I'm betting the VRP Fang set-up or something similiar will yeild the lowest IAT, significantly more than stock or a modified hood.

Just my non-engineering auto enthusiasts opinion.

I'd bet my life it wouldn't beat my modded hood design.

As for the other comments ... I think you're wrong on that for the simple reason that that cool air is now taking on the engine as a heat sink when the tubes are removed. Not to mention all the heated air that is pulled through the radiator and pumped into the engine compartment with the fan.

With the tubes installed they are drawing cool air. Period, not saturated with all that additional heat. I'll bet insulating the filter boxes and better engine compartment venting will yield the best results. I think there may be a simple solution that will maintain stock look for venting the engine compartment.

I think Sneakyon's results are suspect. (No offense)

I tried that before insulating the tubes, and suffered heat soak reduced performance very quickly.

So ... all I can say is, for the CLS, it doesn't work, which is why I started the thread by questioning whether our set ups CLS vs E are the same or not.

[JustPete]

Originally Posted by jturkel

right. i was planning on doing both the airboxes and the tubes.....and may actually now wrap the I/C and lay down some heat shielding stuff on the cylinder V.

so are you saying wrap the ENTIRE airbox? like a gift? lol....or just the bottom and sides?

any chance you have a link to where i can get that stuff? also, is it self-adhesive or how is it kept on the airbox?

thanks

I wouldn't do that if I were you. You don't want to trap heat on the engine.

[stevebez]

Two NACA scoops just ahead of air boxes blended flush into the hood will solve all the problems....

Mbe one day Ill give this a pop.

[M-bENZ]

Originally Posted by 45acp

ThermoTec makes wraps and insulation stuff as well...

http://www.thermotec.com/full-product-line.html

Im using this too for my lower air box. Its easy and fast

Andy

[Chadillac2000]

Have we completely thrown out the idea of recreating the VRP fang setup? I know if you had some straight section of either ABS plastic, aluminum or stainless steel, a few 90 degree bend pieces, and some silicone couplers it could be done.

[Ghostrider]

Originally Posted by jturkel

right. i was planning on doing both the airboxes and the tubes.....and may actually now wrap the I/C and lay down some heat shielding stuff on the cylinder V.

so are you saying wrap the ENTIRE airbox? like a gift? lol....or just the bottom and sides?

any chance you have a link to where i can get that stuff? also, is it self-adhesive or how is it kept on the airbox?

thanks

It has adhesive backing and yes, I covered the entire airbox. So yeah, wrapped like a gift is a great analogy!! These engine bays are pretty air tight so the heat gets into any and everything. I do have an airbox that only has the bottom covered and the IAT's just aren't as good.

I actually bought it from a race shop that worked on Formula Atlantic cars, but have been searching for it on the web. They charged me their cost for the stuff, about $25 a linear foot.

[jturkel]

Originally Posted by JustPete

I wouldn't do that if I were you. You don't want to trap heat on the engine.

really? i know a lot of the more knowledgeable guys have recommended it to me in the c32 forum, like splinter, and another guy is running with that and is seeing very LOW temps.

see post 16 and 20

Heat Wrap Anyone?

[JustPete]

Originally Posted by jturkel

really? i know a lot of the more knowledgeable guys have recommended it to me in the c32 forum, like splinter, and another guy is running with that and is seeing very LOW temps.

see post 16 and 20

Heat Wrap Anyone?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post.

I can see where insulating the IC from heat would be beneficial, but it looks like he's also using an aftermarket IC so YMMV. But I personally would be very leery of doing anything to trap heat on the motor unless I increased cooling and oil supply. Feeding the motor cooler air won't replace overheating critical engine parts to the point of failure. Heat is the enemy of any engine. Their designed to run at a specific temperature. If you insulate the top of that motor, you MAY create an area of concentrated heat beyond the cooling systems tolerance.

Aluminum blocks have been know to do very terrible things when overheated. Will it be worth warped heads, blown gaskets or a cracked block ? Sure wouldn't be for me.

I'm more interested in reducing heat across the board inside the engine bay.

[jturkel]

Originally Posted by JustPete

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post.

I can see where insulating the IC from heat would be beneficial, but it looks like he's also using an aftermarket IC so YMMV. But I personally would be very leery of doing anything to trap heat on the motor unless I increased cooling and oil supply. Feeding the motor cooler air won't replace overheating critical engine parts to the point of failure. Heat is the enemy of any engine. Their designed to run at a specific temperature. If you insulate the top of that motor, you MAY create an area of concentrated heat beyond the cooling systems tolerance.

Aluminum blocks have been know to do very terrible things when overheated. Will it be worth warped heads, blown gaskets or a cracked block ? Sure wouldn't be for me.

I'm more interested in reducing heat across the board inside the engine bay.

he actually is using the stock IC believe it or not. there is not aftermarket ic anyone is running on a c32 since code3 failed.

i view the insulation of the ic as protecting it from the heat of the engine. i think thats what was being done here by wrapping it. and he is running more coolant with a CM90 pump, a large heat exchanger, and an additional "built in" reservoir as he likes to call it.

idk.....its just an idea lol

[str8ridin]

Originally Posted by JustPete

I'd bet my life it wouldn't beat my modded hood design.

As for the other comments ... I think you're wrong on that for the simple reason that that cool air is now taking on the engine as a heat sink when the tubes are removed. Not to mention all the heated air that is pulled through the radiator and pumped into the engine compartment with the fan.

With the tubes installed they are drawing cool air. Period, not saturated with all that additional heat. I'll bet insulating the filter boxes and better engine compartment venting will yield the best results. I think there may be a simple solution that will maintain stock look for venting the engine compartment.

I think Sneakyon's results are suspect. (No offense)

I tried that before insulating the tubes, and suffered heat soak reduced performance very quickly.

So ... all I can say is, for the CLS, it doesn't work, which is why I started the thread by questioning whether our set ups CLS vs E are the same or not.

You have a valid point about removing the tubes. I didn't consider the output from the radiator. So, I agree that the OEM tube set-up is the best. Wrapping them will help.

As for insulating the filter boxes, what is your plan? I haven't taken my boxes off, but I did observe that there isn't much room between them and the engine itself. And if you can't properly shield the boxes from the engine heat, then no amount of hood venting can effectively reduce the IAT. Think of a fan blowing over a covered fry pan on the stove. Yes, the cover may be cooled, but when you have a persistent heat source (the engine) under the box, it and it's contents will still be hot. Sorry, I am watching Iron Chef right now and that is all I could come up with.

Unfortunately, we have limited data and a lot of speculation, so it's really hard to say what is right or wrong at this point.

That being said, I still specualte that the cone filters in front of the front inlet holes with heat wrapped tubes to the TB is the best solution. Better engine compartment venting via hood louvers or what not may help, but only in conjunction with the said set-up, not the oem boxes if they can't be effectively shielded from the heat.

[JustPete]

Originally Posted by jturkel

he actually is using the stock IC believe it or not. there is not aftermarket ic anyone is running on a c32 since code3 failed.

Sorry, my mistake. I scanned over his post. It was an aftermarket heat exchanger.

i view the insulation of the ic as protecting it from the heat of the engine. i think thats what was being done here by wrapping it. and he is running more coolant with a CM90 pump, a large heat exchanger, and an additional "built in" reservoir as he likes to call it.

idk.....its just an idea lol

I think the larger H/E has been proven to be successful, so I totally agree there. I'm not sure about greater flow rates working unless the HE is HUGE.

You have to give the HE time to cool the fluid, otherwise IMO you'll simply feed it hot coolant.

I'd say testing flow rates and temps is in order. Ideally, a humongous H/E and high flow would be great. The smallish H/E's ... even aftermarket need time to do their job. Also ... speed and pressure of the fluid will actually heat it some as well.

Stock flow rate should be fine with a larger H/E IMO.

Someone needs to test this stuff. I'd love to see how cool the coolant temps are vs stock flow rate.

[JustPete]

Originally Posted by str8ridin

You have a valid point about removing the tubes. I didn't consider the output from the radiator. So, I agree that the OEM tube set-up is the best. Wrapping them will help.

As for insulating the filter boxes, what is your plan? I haven't taken my boxes off, but I did observe that there isn't much room between them and the engine itself. And if you can't properly shield the boxes from the engine heat, then no amount of hood venting can effectively reduce the IAT. Think of a fan blowing over a covered fry pan on the stove. Yes, the cover may be cooled, but when you have a persistent heat source (the engine) under the box, it and it's contents will still be hot. Sorry, I am watching Iron Chef right now and that is all I could come up with.

Unfortunately, we have limited data and a lot of speculation, so it's really hard to say what is right or wrong at this point.

That being said, I still specualte that the cone filters in front of the front inlet holes with heat wrapped tubes to the TB is the best solution. Better engine compartment venting via hood louvers or what not may help, but only in conjunction with the said set-up, not the oem boxes if they can't be effectively shielded from the heat.

I plan on using some of the thinner shielding around the lower halves of the air filter boxes. Ideally, completely insulted tubes back to the TB would be great too. I prefer though to keep the factory engine look with the boxes.

The best will be when I do the hood mod. I have absolutely no doubt I'll get at least 20 degrees at this point from stock and maybe as much as 40 or more depending on ambient air.

Where it will be most effective though will be with mods.

Right now I want to test a theory to remove engine compartment heat because it's a pressure cooker stock.