Install: Rear Toe / Camber arms

[jangy]

Since this looks like it will be a learning experience I thought I would start a new thread to show the build and trials and tribulations involved.... Last night, we were able to get both the toe links and camber arms in place. The intent was simply to replace the OEM arms and not looking to adjust. My tech was confortable with doing that part but felt that the alignment part be done by someone else since he wasn't sure about all of the bushings, etc and how they will like this. It took until about midnight, but they did a few test fits and then loaded them on. Being on a lift with the right tools and crew, it took no time (10 minutes) to remove / install each arm. For those that are working on similar things, I have a few pointers: 1 - although the arms look symmetrical, they are not. There is a front and back to them and you need to add that to your design (Jay did ). I didn't understand the importance of this until i saw it on the car last night. 2 - Clearance: Jay's beefy toe link mount is close to my exhaust, which I happened to have tucked in as much as possible. Moving it was no issue and the tips are still perfect but something to keep in mind. 3 - Clearance: The camber arms are much more intricate than I first realized. Jay found this out as his expenses grew in getting it done but now I know why. The arms and sway bar, etc. are all very tied in. As we lowered the car and the wheels began to compress the suspension, you could see lots of range of motion amongst all the arms. Overall, my tech was very impressed with how well designed these arms are and how well they integrate into the suspensions natural pulls, etc. My only long term concern would be the remaining bushings in the setup may begin to wear faster as the replaced ones are strong. Off to alignment!! It will likely be a long day. I hope $500 is all it is at this point. I am dying to drive the car and see what it feels like. I am test fitting my SL rims (et37) with 295s when the camber is being done to know what offsets will work with these things. This is something that Chiromikey brought up and I think it is relevent for any of us regardless of what brand we use.....

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[chiromikey]

thanks for sharing all the info and updates. looking forward to more!

[BenzoBoi]

[P1 Performance]

Originally Posted by jangy

Since this looks like it will be a learning experience I thought I would start a new thread to show the build and trials and tribulations involved....

Last night, we were able to get both the toe links and camber arms in place. The intent was simply to replace the OEM arms and not looking to adjust. My tech was confortable with doing that part but felt that the alignment part be done by someone else since he wasn't sure about all of the bushings, etc and how they will like this.

It took until about midnight, but they did a few test fits and then loaded them on. Being on a lift with the right tools and crew, it took no time (10 minutes) to remove / install each arm.

For those that are working on similar things, I have a few pointers:
1 - although the arms look symmetrical, they are not. There is a front and back to them and you need to add that to your design (Jay did ). I didn't understand the importance of this until i saw it on the car last night.
2 - Clearance: Jay's beefy toe link mount is close to my exhaust, which I happened to have tucked in as much as possible. Moving it was no issue and the tips are still perfect but something to keep in mind.
3 - Clearance: The camber arms are much more intricate than I first realized. Jay found this out as his expenses grew in getting it done but now I know why. The arms and sway bar, etc. are all very tied in. As we lowered the car and the wheels began to compress the suspension, you could see lots of range of motion amongst all the arms.

Overall, my tech was very impressed with how well designed these arms are and how well they integrate into the suspensions natural pulls, etc. My only long term concern would be the remaining bushings in the setup may begin to wear faster as the replaced ones are strong.

Off to alignment!! It will likely be a long day. I hope $500 is all it is at this point. I am dying to drive the car and see what it feels like.



I am test fitting my SL rims (et37) with 295s when the camber is being done to know what offsets will work with these things. This is something that Chiromikey brought up and I think it is relevent for any of us regardless of what brand we use.....

I know right!!! If someone were to look at the arms they would think it could just be flipped over and call it day. Not the case at all. I have some pics I could post up if you wanted me to?

Isn't it kinda weird looking at all the arms going every which way but being able to make since of it all.

Hey Jangy, when you're done I promise you the first thing that's going to run through your mind is... Maybe I can make something for all the other arms as well!!

[splinter]

Good stuff, jangy. Kudos for sourcing heretofore unavailable hardware.

It’s swell you’re now able to more fully exploit your aft toe and camber compromises.
Chased my tail on corner scales and alignment settings far more often than I should admit.
Trust you’ll nail ‘em in due course.

Any chance you’re able to join the incorrigibles at a forthcoming OTR Willow Springs cruise?

[jangy]

Originally Posted by P1 Performance

I know right!!! If someone were to look at the arms they would think it could just be flipped over and call it day. Not the case at all. I have some pics I could post up if you wanted me to?

Definitely!! I am into sharing info, so anything to help everyone make this a more refined process helps!

Hey Jangy, when you're done I promise you the first thing that's going to run through your mind is... Maybe I can make something for all the other arms as well!!

HAHA!! Already there. I need to stay focussed but we have already discussed a few more easy ones for under here.

[jangy]

Originally Posted by splinter

Good stuff, jangy. Kudos for sourcing heretofore unavailable hardware.

It’s swell you’re now able to more fully exploit your aft toe and camber compromises.
Chased my tail on corner scales and alignment settings far more often than I should admit.
Trust you’ll nail ‘em in due course.

It looks like you nailed it. Now that i can tweak, I will be spending lots of time and $$ on this. I guess that is good

Any chance you’re able to join the incorrigibles at a forthcoming OTR Willow Springs cruise?

When is the date? If not this run, for sure this year. Sun and I want to start attending some road events for the fun and to get a better feel for the mods.

[jangy]

So it is now Sunday and we are stepping back to take a look at all that was done and what is left. Being the first time, this has taken much more labor than would normally be needed. But, Jay wanted EVERYTHING checked out before he locks the design.

First a few deviations from the plan:
My tech and I had a slight miscommunication and basically I skipped a step .

Friday night, we were able to take off the old arms and test fit the new arms. They were then taken back off and we visually tried to make them each about the same size as OEM and tightened them up for install. No loctite yet. Friday night ended with the arms on the car but with it still on the lift. We did not test clearances.

Saturday morning, I thought we were doing alignment and I would be done BUT, I missed a whole series of excersizes to test for rubbing and bushing / bearing strain.
First, they put the OEM wheels on and turned the ELM OFF. Suspension setting was put in comfort and the airmatic raise feature was used. This setup basically gives me max positive camber. This time, the car was lowered to load the corners. Obviously, the car stood tall. It looked pretty "OEM" to me. There was a slight lean, but that is to be expected from eyeballing the settings. We drove it around in a figure 8 (slowly) to let it settle. We crawled up under the car and clearance is no issue. All the bushings looked fine (no excessive stretch).
Then, the raise button was turned off and the car allowed to settle. Again, we did the same routine and again, the car looked fine.
Next, the ELM was turned on and we slowly went through lowering the car a few notches at a time just to see how low it would go and what would happen to clearance. I am thrilled to report that there were NO rubbing issues at all!
Then, the car was put back in full OEM form. ELM (off) and airmatic on comfort, raise button off. The car was put up on the alignment machine and they spent a few hour tweaking, trying to duplicate the OEM specs at the OEM height. It was basically trying to get the arms to the exact size the OEM ones were. The idea was that it would be easier to do it right if we started at that point. The bolts that hold the arms to the car were TQd down without loctite. The locking bolts for all arms were loosened and the adjusting nuts were turned to get it set. I must add that the guys were very happy with the adjusting bolts and how smoothly they moved and adjusted even with the car under load. When Jay mentioned the "special" bolts, I didn't get it but i do now.
They had it "good" enough by about 4pm. Then, the ELM was turned on and Airmatic went to Sport II mode. Again, raise button was off. The car basically sat like it did before with the 295s nicely tucked. This test was done to see if the top of the tire would rub when the camber was adjusted by pulling the top out. Just for anyone not up to speed on this, I had 18X9.5et37 with 295/35/18 at the time. A very critical thing to note for those with taller wheels / tires. with every angle that we adjust, the top of the wheel will move MORE if you have taller tires. The closer you are to the center of rotation, the less dramatic the effect. Point being, I am doing this to find my optimal offset when lowered and adjusted. It will not mean that 19 and 20" rims will have similar results.
Anyhow, long story short, I have a few lessons learned. First and foremost is to expect LOTS of labor and or make sure you get the right people doing it. With a lift and proper tools, it is a very easy job. It is just extrememly tedious. Second, I feel that this shoud be one of the earlier mods and I have a feel that we will be altering what we consider ideal offsets by a few mm. Before we decide exactly what the results are, lets let me get it aligned and see if it really rubs.

Mikey: I have a feeling the setup you are running will rub, but I dunno what tire size you are running. I am scared that DRs would also swell out more and definitely rub if street tires just barely even rub. My 295s did start to touch on speed bumps but they had the setting very agressive at almost neutral camber.

I will be test fitting the 18X10et42 with 295/35/18 HREs on Monday and really think that it will be PERFECT!! As is, they are tucked, but there is room for a good 4 - 5 credit cards between the tire sidewall and the fender. That is the room i can play with.

Sorry for the long post but I have been exhausted and not had a chance to update besides for text. I am also like a kid with a new car. i am so happy to finally see what I had always wanted coming about and I am learning so much. This is awesome!

I have tried to stay fairly unbiased, but i have to say that Jay's parts are trully functional by design. Even down to the bushings, he uses top notch materials and it really shows. I am dying to put miles on it to see how the bushings feel as well.

[GLK4MATIC]

Glad you like what you've seen so far

[BenzoBoi]

Originally Posted by jangy

So it is now Sunday and we are stepping back to take a look at all that was done and what is left. Being the first time, this has taken much more labor than would normally be needed. But, Jay wanted EVERYTHING checked out before he locks the design.

First a few deviations from the plan:
My tech and I had a slight miscommunication and basically I skipped a step .

Friday night, we were able to take off the old arms and test fit the new arms. They were then taken back off and we visually tried to make them each about the same size as OEM and tightened them up for install. No loctite yet. Friday night ended with the arms on the car but with it still on the lift. We did not test clearances.

Saturday morning, I thought we were doing alignment and I would be done BUT, I missed a whole series of excersizes to test for rubbing and bushing / bearing strain.
First, they put the OEM wheels on and turned the ELM OFF. Suspension setting was put in comfort and the airmatic raise feature was used. This setup basically gives me max positive camber. This time, the car was lowered to load the corners. Obviously, the car stood tall. It looked pretty "OEM" to me. There was a slight lean, but that is to be expected from eyeballing the settings. We drove it around in a figure 8 (slowly) to let it settle. We crawled up under the car and clearance is no issue. All the bushings looked fine (no excessive stretch).
Then, the raise button was turned off and the car allowed to settle. Again, we did the same routine and again, the car looked fine.
Next, the ELM was turned on and we slowly went through lowering the car a few notches at a time just to see how low it would go and what would happen to clearance. I am thrilled to report that there were NO rubbing issues at all!
Then, the car was put back in full OEM form. ELM (off) and airmatic on comfort, raise button off. The car was put up on the alignment machine and they spent a few hour tweaking, trying to duplicate the OEM specs at the OEM height. It was basically trying to get the arms to the exact size the OEM ones were. The idea was that it would be easier to do it right if we started at that point. The bolts that hold the arms to the car were TQd down without loctite. The locking bolts for all arms were loosened and the adjusting nuts were turned to get it set. I must add that the guys were very happy with the adjusting bolts and how smoothly they moved and adjusted even with the car under load. When Jay mentioned the "special" bolts, I didn't get it but i do now.
They had it "good" enough by about 4pm. Then, the ELM was turned on and Airmatic went to Sport II mode. Again, raise button was off. The car basically sat like it did before with the 295s nicely tucked. This test was done to see if the top of the tire would rub when the camber was adjusted by pulling the top out. Just for anyone not up to speed on this, I had 18X9.5et37 with 295/35/18 at the time. A very critical thing to note for those with taller wheels / tires. with every angle that we adjust, the top of the wheel will move MORE if you have taller tires. The closer you are to the center of rotation, the less dramatic the effect. Point being, I am doing this to find my optimal offset when lowered and adjusted. It will not mean that 19 and 20" rims will have similar results.
Anyhow, long story short, I have a few lessons learned. First and foremost is to expect LOTS of labor and or make sure you get the right people doing it. With a lift and proper tools, it is a very easy job. It is just extrememly tedious. Second, I feel that this shoud be one of the earlier mods and I have a feel that we will be altering what we consider ideal offsets by a few mm. Before we decide exactly what the results are, lets let me get it aligned and see if it really rubs.

Mikey: I have a feeling the setup you are running will rub, but I dunno what tire size you are running. I am scared that DRs would also swell out more and definitely rub if street tires just barely even rub. My 295s did start to touch on speed bumps but they had the setting very agressive at almost neutral camber.

I will be test fitting the 18X10et42 with 295/35/18 HREs on Monday and really think that it will be PERFECT!! As is, they are tucked, but there is room for a good 4 - 5 credit cards between the tire sidewall and the fender. That is the room i can play with.

Sorry for the long post but I have been exhausted and not had a chance to update besides for text. I am also like a kid with a new car. i am so happy to finally see what I had always wanted coming about and I am learning so much. This is awesome!

I have tried to stay fairly unbiased, but i have to say that Jay's parts are trully functional by design. Even down to the bushings, he uses top notch materials and it really shows. I am dying to put miles on it to see how the bushings feel as well.

Great write up Jangy!

Originally Posted by GLK4MATIC

Glad you like what you've seen so far

I want mine soon too please!

[jangy]

A few days have passed and I have some updates on the W211 / W219 camber / toe adjustable arms project.

Last weekend, the task was simply to replace the OEM arms with these new ones and set everything to OEM and see how it went. I only put about 25 - 30 miles (max) on it in that state, so the feedback is minimal. I immediately noticed a tighter rear. I assume most of that is from the massive toe links and all the bushings. When rolling, things felt more smooth (in a wierd way). At speed, I could feel / hear a slight humm (the diff) but that was the only real difference.

This week, we turned the ELM back on and did the alignment again. The tech told me that the arms had a solid 6 degrees of adjustment in them. He has my rears set at -3 degrees right now. They were a bit closer to 5 - 6 degrees before. I've put just over 150 miles on the carand starting punching it pretty good after about 20 miles. I have nothing but great things to say right now. There is NO squeecking, rubbing, clicking, any of the compromises like that. The car is just more stable. it is hard to describe but one thing that is a no brainer is that the car is back to pushing hard. That tells me the rear end is getting better grip. As it was, the 265s on the front had a decent balance on the car or at least enough to where I could throw the car into a side slide but now, I am not loosing the rear end as easily under neutral or even mild throttle.

What I am noticing is that the car breaks fully loose more now when I am taking a turn and putting down power. The added traction lets me put more power down before i begin to break loose but I seem to really snap loose now vs a more lean slip feel before. I am thinking that the added rigidity in one area is just showing weaknesses in others and am wondering how helpful an LSD would be.


Lessons learned so far:
1 - Jay does magnificant work. Ask anyone who has touched ANY of his parts.
2 - Wheel / Tire combination / offset norms that we have grown used to may change. In short, tucked at different degrees will mean different offsets.
3 - This mod will lead to huge amounts of alignment tweaks and desire for further suspension mods!!

I hope that covers most of the updates. I will address clearance a sec since that may be a concern. As I said before, the two close spots are the exhaust pipes near the toe link mounts and the rear sway bar close to the camber arms. As it is, I have yet to see or feel any contact or rubbing. BUT, Jay and I had talked about adding sway bar adjustable ends which would move the sway bar location by flexing it. I will need to do more looking to see what will happen then and Jay will make adjustments as needed soon.

Last thing, and I prefer to keep this topic on track so i will mention it here and start a new thread as well. My lease extension with MB did not happen and I will be turning the E55 in at the end of the month.

I have spoken with Jay about this development and he has agreed to continue our grass roots project by proceeding with the front A arms on Sun's car. This is news for Sun as well, so i will need to talk to him to make sure we have everthing lined up. He has been involved in this project so i see the transition as being seemless.

Sun: if you read this and we haven't talked, please PM me your personal info for the deal.

To everyone interested in a set, please post your questions or interest. We can now release information since all patents are pending.

[GLK4MATIC]

Glad you are happy with the design and functionality. It would be cool if you got into another E55 or CLS55

[c32AMG-DTM]

Originally Posted by jangy

What I am noticing is that the car breaks fully loose more now when I am taking a turn and putting down power. The added traction lets me put more power down before i begin to break loose but I seem to really snap loose now vs a more lean slip feel before. I am thinking that the added rigidity in one area is just showing weaknesses in others and am wondering how helpful an LSD would be.

jangy - others may correct this (which is fine), but I believe the snap-oversteer characteristic you mention is likely due to running such severe negative camber in the rear (neg. 3 degrees). Increasing camber to -2 or -1 would likely give less ultimate grip, but a more progressive and controlled slide. YMMV.

[jangy]

Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM

jangy - others may correct this (which is fine), but I believe the snap-oversteer characteristic you mention is likely due to running such severe negative camber in the rear (neg. 3 degrees). Increasing camber to -2 or -1 would likely give less ultimate grip, but a more progressive and controlled slide. YMMV.

I hear ya. It was at -6 degrees before so I only had him trim a few at first. I agree with you that it could be tuned by losing rear traction. Once the A arms come out for the fronts, it will be a better balance. For now, I can only adjust the rears.

[jangy]

Sorry for the delay in this awesome story but Jay has been busy with production and I have been trying to get the showcase cars lined up for the future of this grass roots W211 suspension project.

I am happy to say that we have a new car lined up to continue the build up of the W211 / W219 suspensions so there will likely be little delay in release of the front camber solution prototype.

I am attaching pics of the production camber arms. A set will be put on the action car asap and this fun can continue. I am hoping to get a set on a car by Famosa. Imagine a very fast e55 with even better traction....

[GLK4MATIC]

I'm looking forward to the Famoso event

[jangy]

More production materials: These are the final Toe links....

[stevebez]

That kit is good enough for a dedicated track car!

[GLK4MATIC]

Originally Posted by stevebez

That kit is good enough for a dedicated track car!

Definently overbuilt

[chiromikey]

before jangy came through with these, i had planned on going with p1 performances camber kit. unfortunately, (or fortunately) at this point, i just couldn't wait any longer. i received this kit a few days ago but have been so busy i hadn't even had a chance to open the boxes. well today i was at chris' place (floored fab) and remembered that the boxes were in my trunk. i opened the boxes and handed the contents to chris to see what he had to say. he's a straight shooter and i was a little worried to have him analyze these parts. needless to say, we were both highly impressed...especially for a company's first attempt at mb camber arms/toe links and i can't wait to get started on the install!

november is an EXTREMELY busy month for me but i will report back as soon as i can find time to start this project.

[P1 Performance]

Mike, I'm glad you liked them!

Since Jangy came out with his design first and has been working on it way longer than me, I'm just trying to design my own unique solution. Which is taking longer than expected, but it will be a viable option.

Originally Posted by chiromikey

before jangy came through with these, i had planned on going with p1 performances camber kit. unfortunately, (or fortunately) at this point, i just couldn't wait any longer. i received this kit a few days ago but have been so busy i hadn't even had a chance to open the boxes. well today i was at chris' place (floored fab) and remembered that the boxes were in my trunk. i opened the boxes and handed the contents to chris to see what he had to say. he's a straight shooter and i was a little worried to have him analyze these parts. needless to say, we were both highly impressed...especially for a company's first attempt at mb camber arms/toe links and i can't wait to get started on the install!

november is an EXTREMELY busy month for me but i will report back as soon as i can find time to start this project.

[jangy]

HAHA!! I knew I sent them to the right guy. I'm also pleased to hear that Chris liked them as well. Jay is an absolute artist when it comes to these products. Given the pricepoint, you would unquestionably expect LESS. That is rare in this industry but also something that MBArts is very aware of. This has been a trully grass roots project and I am very happy with how it is turning out.


Mikey: Do you think you will be able to have them installed by Famosa? I really want some guys to have a chance to see them and would love to have track experiences as well.

P1: I'd love to take the credit but all of the design and workmanship comes straight from MBArts. But, you are right that I have been on this hunt for sometime and that many other viable options are out there. Once again, I applaud you for fair play and wish you the best as well. There are MANY arms under there that could be replaced

[GLK4MATIC]

Originally Posted by jangy

HAHA!! I knew I sent them to the right guy. I'm also pleased to hear that Chris liked them as well. Jay is an absolute artist when it comes to these products. Given the pricepoint, you would unquestionably expect LESS. That is rare in this industry but also something that MBArts is very aware of. This has been a trully grass roots project and I am very happy with how it is turning out.


Mikey: Do you think you will be able to have them installed by Famosa? I really want some guys to have a chance to see them and would love to have track experiences as well.

P1: I'd love to take the credit but all of the design and workmanship comes straight from MBArts. But, you are right that I have been on this hunt for sometime and that many other viable options are out there. Once again, I applaud you for fair play and wish you the best as well. There are MANY arms under there that could be replaced

Thank you for the compliment once again!

[jangy]

Any update, Mikey?

[chiromikey]

Originally Posted by jangy

Any update, Mikey?

pm sent