Car & Driver: Dec 2009 E63 vs CTS-V vs XFR

[mugatu22]

As I'm sure many of you have already noticed, the new Car & Driver cover story this month is the one we've been waiting for... 2010 E63 vs CTS-V vs Jag XFR Without ruining the entire story, the E63 wins the comparison. Noteworthy as-tested numbers for the 2010 E63: 0-60mph in 4.0sec 1/4mi in 12.5sec @ 115mph 0-100 in 9.5 sec. lane-change test: 65.4mph Skidpad: 0.92 They say the DCT clutch-auto transmission makes for gnarly acceleration runs from a dig. It optimizes wheelspin. 4.0sec to 60mph is incredible, and it beats the E55 and E63 previous gen models. The new suspension is reportedly vastly improved as well. I have a feeling the DCT transmission will be a game-changer for some of the E55 faithful, if only b/c you can now get a near perfect launch EVERY TIME, plus bang out lightning fast shifts with no torque converter. I know it's still not a FI engine too, so the mod-kings will not be as interested. The new 2010 E63 suspension & chassis sounds like a massive upgrade from the 211 suspension/chassis as well in the handling department (nimble vs "wallowing"). The handling differences alone should be considerable. What did you guys think of the comparo? The CTS-V guys are flustered...

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[MB_Forever]

The W212 E63 will definitely be one great competitor.... but will be nothing compared to the twin turbo version coming in 2 years after

Also, I hope a lot of the problems with MCT have been worked out.... we need more members to track these things and post some data

[Vic55]

The car has the MCT not DCT right? There are differences?

[MB_Forever]

Originally Posted by Vic55

The car has the MCT not DCT right? There are differences?

Yes, the car has MCT not DCT although it is still a double-clutch system. I wish it had the BMW DCT, as it is likely 10 times faster on the upshifts than the MCT

[Hammer Down]

Originally Posted by mugatu22

As I'm sure many of you have already noticed, the new Car & Driver cover story this month is the one we've been waiting for...

2010 E63 vs CTS-V vs Jag XFR

Without ruining the entire story, the E63 wins the comparison.

Noteworthy as-tested numbers for the 2010 E63:

0-60mph in 4.0sec
1/4mi in 12.5sec @ 115mph
0-100 in 9.5 sec.
lane-change test: 65.4mph
Skidpad: 0.92

They say the DCT clutch-auto transmission makes for gnarly acceleration runs from a dig. It optimizes wheelspin. 4.0sec to 60mph is incredible, and it beats the E55 and E63 previous gen models. The new suspension is reportedly vastly improved as well.

I have a feeling the DCT transmission will be a game-changer for some of the E55 faithful, if only b/c you can now get a near perfect launch EVERY TIME, plus bang out lightning fast shifts with no torque converter. I know it's still not a FI engine too, so the mod-kings will not be as interested. The new 2010 E63 suspension & chassis sounds like a massive upgrade from the 211 suspension/chassis as well in the handling department (nimble vs "wallowing"). The handling differences alone should be considerable.

What did you guys think of the comparo? The CTS-V guys are flustered...

I've learned that magazine numbers are just that #'s. It gives us a base on how quick/fast a car is but no one will know until all cars are put in a "Real World" race! example I saw another mag where the cts-v ran 12.3@117 which is still quicker/faster than the up and coming new E63 (based on the #'s you posted) and until the E63 beats the cts-v around the ring I don't want to hear about handling. Remember #'s are just that use them as a guideline but do not make the mistake and think that they are the holy grail.

MB needs to/should do what GM did. When GM built the cts-v they wanted a performance sedan that could outgun the E55 and outhandle the M5. Whenever you saw testing of the cts-v before its release they always had an M5 and a E55 there to compare. I wouldn't be surprised if they purchased both cars.

just my .55

[PC Valkyrie]

Originally Posted by MB_Forever

Yes, the car has MCT not DCT although it is still a double-clutch system. I wish it had the BMW DCT, as it is likely 10 times faster on the upshifts than the MCT

The transmission in the new E63 is the same as the unit in the current SL63. It is NOT a dual clutch transmission. It is the same 7 speed transmission as in previous AMG's except that a wet start-up clutch unit replaces the torque converter.

And no, it is no where as fast as the the M-DCT unit (true dual clutch transmission) in the M3.

[MB_Forever]

Originally Posted by PC Valkyrie

The transmission in the new E63 is the same as the unit in the current SL63. It is NOT a dual clutch transmission. It is the same 7 speed transmission as in previous AMG's except that a wet start-up clutch unit replaces the torque converter.

And no, it is no where as fast as the the M-DCT unit (true dual clutch transmission) in the M3.

According to this article, the SL63 MCT is a twin-clutch system

"The big news with the new SL63 is the addition of Mercedes' seven-speed twin-clutch SpeedShift MCT (Multi-Clutch Transmission) with four drive modes. Shifts with the MCT are promised to be smoother, faster and more fun overall than before."

Here is the article:

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/02/08/o...3-and-sl65-am/

[PC Valkyrie]

Originally Posted by Hammer Down

.......and until the E63 beats the cts-v around the ring I don't want to hear about handling.....

I have to disagree with you there. Although the Nurburgring laptimes are a very good measure of a car's OVERALL performance (acceleration and handling), a lot of time on the Ring can be made up simply by having a high HP car where it will shine on the long straights and fast sweeping corners.

For a better test of "handling", slower, shorter, and more tighter tracks are probably a better venue, where cars with high HP don't have long straights to overpower lower HP cars. The skidpad grip and slalom speeds/lane change speeds that American car mags do also try to isolate the "handling" aspects objectively.

[MB_Forever]

The AMG site refers to it as a double declutch function as well.

[PC Valkyrie]

Originally Posted by MB_Forever

According to this article, the SL63 MCT is a twin-clutch system

"The big news with the new SL63 is the addition of Mercedes' seven-speed twin-clutch SpeedShift MCT (Multi-Clutch Transmission) with four drive modes. Shifts with the MCT are promised to be smoother, faster and more fun overall than before."

Here is the article:

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/02/08/o...3-and-sl65-am/

That article was from 2008 and not an official MB press release. I have not seen from any official MB press release mentioning anything about a dual clutch design. MCT stands for multi-clutch technology, and it refers to the multi-clutch design which replaces the torque converter. A true dual clutch transmission always has 2 gears selected (1 engaged and another pre-selected) and ready to go at any time. This is not the case with the AMG unit in SL63 or E63. Double de-clutching refers to how the clutches operate during gear shifts......it doesn't refer to having 2 gears engaged at the same time.

"At the heart of the new AMG SPEEDSHIFT MCT 7-speed sports transmission lies the wet start-up clutch, which runs in an oil bath and replaces the previous torque converter. Thanks to its low rotational inertia, the transmission responds instantaneously and dynamically with no slip. Accelerator pedal movements trigger an instant traction response. Fitted with four drive modes: “C” (Comfort), “S” (Sport), “S+” (Sport plus) and “M” (Manual), the transmission provides gearshifting with no loss of tractive force and supports customised control strategies for maximum driving pleasure. In “C” mode the gearshifts are comfortable, coupled with a “soft” accelerator response set-up for outstandingly smooth power transfer. In “S” mode the engine and transmission interact with more "bite": the engine speed is allowed to reach a higher level in each gear; the downshifts also feel more spontaneous. The gearshifts are around 20 per cent faster than in “C” mode. Switching to “S+” mode cuts another 20 per cent off shift times, while “M” is the sportiest mode: here the AMG 6.3-litre V8 engine has even more bite, added to which the transmission shifts gear another 10 per cent faster – a reduction of 50 per cent compared with “C” mode. In “M” mode the gearshifts take just 100 milliseconds.

Ultra-fast, spontaneous multiple downshifts are another forte of the new MCT sports transmission. For instance, kickdown lets you move straight from seventh down to fourth gear or from fifth to second. In the “S” (Sport), “S+” (Sport plus) and “M” (Manual) modes the automatic double-declutching function is active. Every manual or automatic downshift is accompanied by precisely metered double-declutching – from “S” through “S+” to “M” incrementally. And this not only adds to the driver's emotional experience: the virtually load-free downshift minimises load-change reactions, which pays dividends particularly when braking into a bend on the racetrack."

[myntk12]

Very impressive, but I'm sure BMW's upcoming M5 will be a top performer. I'm sure Audi will make a strong comeback, so Mercedes really needs to step up their game for the next version.

For the E63 to handle as well as it did, great job to AMG.
Balance is where it is at, not overall HP, as evidenced by Porsche for so many years. It appears the E63 has really succeeded there.

[Hammer Down]

Originally Posted by PC Valkyrie

I have to disagree with you there. Although the Nurburgring laptimes are a very good measure of a car's OVERALL performance (acceleration and handling), a lot of time on the Ring can be made up simply by having a high HP car where it will shine on the long straights and fast sweeping corners.

For a better test of "handling", slower, shorter, and more tighter tracks are probably a better venue, where cars with high HP don't have long straights to overpower lower HP cars. The skidpad grip and slalom speeds/lane change speeds that American car mags do also try to isolate the "handling" aspects objectively.

I hear what you are saying, but generally speaking if a car handles good to exceptional at the ring chances are that it will handle very well as a whole. cts-v quick at the ring, good handling car, m5 good at the ring, a good handling car, porsche uglyamerica really good at the ring, same applies to spors cars: GTR,ZR1, Zonda, Viper ACR all of those cars handle exceptionally well on any track at any speed

[Hammer Down]

This is an old video but it shows how much better the M5 handles vs the E55 (no surprise) but the M5 also handles well at the ring.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2rBDTkggj0

CTS-V vs M5 around a different track

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQp5ih_QOE0

[Vic55]

Originally Posted by PC Valkyrie

The transmission in the new E63 is the same as the unit in the current SL63. It is NOT a dual clutch transmission. It is the same 7 speed transmission as in previous AMG's except that a wet start-up clutch unit replaces the torque converter.

And no, it is no where as fast as the the M-DCT unit (true dual clutch transmission) in the M3.

Thanks, I figured it was but was looking for the distinct differences and the performance ones.

I love the DCT in my two rides!!!

[MB_Forever]

Originally Posted by PC Valkyrie

That article was from 2008 and not an official MB press release. I have not seen from any official MB press release mentioning anything about a dual clutch design. MCT stands for multi-clutch technology, and it refers to the multi-clutch design which replaces the torque converter. A true dual clutch transmission always has 2 gears selected (1 engaged and another pre-selected) and ready to go at any time. This is not the case with the AMG unit in SL63 or E63. Double de-clutching refers to how the clutches operate during gear shifts......it doesn't refer to having 2 gears engaged at the same time.

Interesting.... I'm glad somebody shed some light on this. I always thought it was a dual clutch system similar to the DCT, but I guess not. I wonder why Mercedes went this route instead of a true dual clutch? The technology is more than available At 100 ms, the MCT shifts are still much slower than DCT and even slower than SMG II and III (80 ms), which are almost 4 years old.

[Vic55]

Originally Posted by MB_Forever

Interesting.... I'm glad somebody shed some light on this. I always thought it was a dual clutch system similar to the DCT, but I guess not. I wonder why Mercedes went this route instead of a true dual clutch? The technology is more than available At 100 ms, the MCT shifts are still much slower than DCT and even slower than SMG II and III (80 ms), which are almost 4 years old.

Cost?? What does the MCT cost on the window?

[mugatu22]

Good catch, the new E63 is (as you've all already said) a MCT not DCT, my bad.

From the numbers I've seen, it seems that the MBZ MCT trans still blows away the 211-class torque-converter transmission with regard to both shift speed and engagement/firmness/power transfer. Add the launch control and I have a hard time believing the 211 transmission w/torque converter is in the same league at all.

[wawy]

Good old Car and Driver. Add .5 seconds to all their all their 0-60mph times...

[mugatu22]

Originally Posted by wawy

Good old Car and Driver. Add .5 seconds to all their all their 0-60mph times...

C&D got the Porsche Panamera Turbo 0-60 in 3.3sec. Road & Track got the same car 0-60 in 3.4 sec. That's pretty consistent (and amazing for a 4-door car, btw).

[NCE500]

I read the test yesterday, and while I have not yet driven the W212 E63, I believe the quicker 0-60 time stems mostly from the rear axle ratio change from 2.82 to 3.06.

The other performance numbers are not all that different from W211, although I anticipate it will do significantly better lap times on a track, especially with the upgraded suspension package. The W212 suspension upgrades and new transmission technology will be substantial ehancements on the road too, but I'm in no rush to trade in my 07.

And for what it's worth, my 09 automatic CTS-V is a definitely few ticks faster than my E63.

I do look forward to seeing and driving a W212 E63 soon.

[mugatu22]

Where do you notice the "few clicks" difference---down low, mid-range, up top at freeway speeds?

I've driven too many E63s to count but the CTS-V is still a car I've yet to experience in any reasonable fashion.

The CTS-V feels twice as small as the E-class as well.

[Cylinder Head]

Originally Posted by PC Valkyrie

I have to disagree with you there. Although the Nurburgring laptimes are a very good measure of a car's OVERALL performance (acceleration and handling), a lot of time on the Ring can be made up simply by having a high HP car where it will shine on the long straights and fast sweeping corners.

For a better test of "handling", slower, shorter, and more tighter tracks are probably a better venue, where cars with high HP don't have long straights to overpower lower HP cars. The skidpad grip and slalom speeds/lane change speeds that American car mags do also try to isolate the "handling" aspects objectively.

That's not necessarily true, as the E46 M3 CSL is absolutley dominant at the ring despite a massive power deficit compared to the peers within a few seconds of its 'Ring time.

[myntk12]

Your premise being accurate, the E46 M3 CSL is also much lighter and setup for track use. A few source even state the car made 20 or so more hp (it all adds up). About as close to a track car one will get even in a limited edition production vehicle. Not a vehicle I would want to live with day in and out, but a great weekend car I suppose.

[MJ50]

MCT retrofit to 211! let's make it happen!

[Jakpro1]

So is the SLS a true dual clutch setup?

Here is audio of that baby shifting.

Don't judge first to 2nd...I think he bangs the limiter. Listen to 2nd to 3rd....it's near instant. Sure beats our 55 slushers.